In my opinion the system they've revealed thus far (albeit vaguely,) at least potentially, sounds like it gives me more freedom.

Rather than being limited to skills I choose before I begin the game, I can now simply become better at whatever I want as I play. I'll be penalized for being too broad, and become more powerful and capable by specializing. Effectively, this will become my class, and perks will countour and accentuate it over time. I'm free to restrict myself if I want for roleplaying purposes, or branch out.

I'd prefer a solid, but more simplistic skill system, than a "complex" one that's easily exploitable. I always felt like Bethesda tried to jump into making some amazing piece of artistry that's at the same time easy to use (because skills go up as you use them, no need to think and invest points), but then it has all these dumb exploits. =/

I've actually never seen a game do the "you get better as you use it" system particularly well- even Darklands, which I love dearly. Maybe there could be fixed attributes you pick at the start (like Fallout), and then your skills just level up as you use them. Each attribute would majorly affect something (strength is melee damage, what kinds of weapons you can use, etc), and they couldn't be trained, but skills could be trained and would affect some of the same stuff, but also some different stuff. It's boring, but not very exploitable (other than mastering all skills, which would happen anyway).

I really like the idea of role-playing through gameplay but I'm yet to play a game that has done a good job of it. While I'm not much of a role-player (another that plays for fun first) most games seem to allow you to be good at everything if you're prepared to do enough grinding, to me that seems to defeat the idea of role-playing.

Role-playing through stat selection is ok, it works. I think hybrid systems can also work.

Yes. It's a bad thing.

one word.

'lol'

There haven't been any reductions to role playing potential unless you honestly think your character page decides who your character is.
They're reducing the UI to give you a more immersive experience, adding new combat styles, improving enemy AI, revamping magic and melee to make them less "point and click", adding perks to further customize your character, etc. etc.

IMO people need to stop worrying about their character page, having a few less individual skills and arbitrary class label with preset limitations to the way you level is not going to ruin the game.

I wonder if the Oblivion forums are still civilized and full of thoughtful opinions that are written in full sentences? I knew things would get [censored] quick on the skyrim forums and I prepared myself for it but it still pisses me off much too frequently.

I mean, sure, it's not like everyone's perfect (I'm certainly not) or speaks english as their first language but I hate seeing all these "teh sky are falling also Todd is bad decidions!" threads go on and on with morons clashing witts with other morons.

That's just something we have to deal with for a year until the forum starts to slow down a couple months after the release. It's frustrating but I wouldn't go anywhere else because it's even worse out in the general population. I bet the Game Informer threads are almost intollerable. In a way, it makes me want to start a bunch of flame bait threads like doucheland

my personal idea of "role-playing" is, at its core, playing a role, which in this case means you are an active contributor to the stories that unfold in the game. as a main character, your actions and decisions dictate how events will play out, whether they be big or small - whether the Vault will get a caravan of water to tide them over until i can find the water chip, whether the android will retain its independence or be forced back into servitude, whether Duty or Freedom will gain control over a given area, things like that.

stats and levels and numbers mean absolutely nothing to me. ideally i'd like to see them completely abolished, as far too often they hold back the game, rather than make it interesting. it's not impossible for stats to be fun - in fact it's very easy to come up with ways for stats to greatly improve how a game feels - but more often than not they exist because the developers couldn't come up with a better system, or just because if it didn't have stats people would yell "that's not an RPG!" on forums.

if a game allows you to take an active role in deciding how the stories told within it end, i consider it an RPG. STALKER is an RPG. Fallout is an RPG.

except for Daggerfall, i've always considered TES first and foremost an adventure game. you explore the world and interact with its inhabitants and discover the stories it has to tell, but very rarely do your actions have any bearing on the way a given story ends outside of whether or not somebody dies halfway through the telling. you're an adventurer and you're on an adventure, but generally the only thing you have a say in is how you approach that adventure.

Baldur's Gate is the same way, though it masks it very well. you can embrace fate and go along with it or you can curse fate and be forced to go along with it, but you don't really have a say in the things that unfold - you can't join forces with Sarevok, you can't join forces with Irenicus, you can't join forces with Melissan, and you exist pretty much solely to further the story, but the way you approach it can vary between playthroughs. the only genuine storyline choice i can actually think of in Baldur's Gate is at the very end of Throne of Bhaal, but that doesn't really have any impact on anything outside of the personal tale of your character.

"role-playing game" is an incredible vague title. there's a colloquial definitions, sure, but more than "first-person shooter" or "fighting game" or "flight sim", what a "role-playing game" actually is is very subjective.

also when i say "story" i'm referring specifically to pre-determined narratives, not emergent gameplay. emergence adds a whole new level of complication.

And Pre-determined stories have been the Bane of "True" Roleplaying Games since inflexible GMs plagued the PnP scene... and Bioware got deluded into thinking that's what people want. What we want is a sense of Player Agency.

In RPG's you're supposed to play a character different than you. That's where the stats come into the picture, both mental and physical. In CRPG's mental stats were always been pretty much disconnected from the roleplay (except from a few games where they open different dialogs and stuff, but even that's not even close to how much they could influence a P&P RPG), so doing the same to physical in order to further the gameplay is expected. I'll agree with the poster who said CRPG's developed as a different animal altogether (even though P&P is trying to imitate them now)

i loved oblivions "you get better at what you do"system because thats how skill is aquired. plus with Fallout3 perks we'll let you shape your character with small advantages in specsific catigories.plus with attributes adding a nice 3rd layer and giving you a leg up on specsific skills youve been practising.(p.s. i svck at spelling :hubbahubba: )

We agree at something! Well, except I'm either laughing at everyone, or trying to calm a situation. Depends on the amount of warpstone I've been exposed to.

Funny options, OP :goodjob:

heck, right now I'm in a RP where none of the players know what their character's stats are, are were given a set of skills they're good at. From there, we can name and decide what gender the person is, and jump right in. I must say, character sheets can be overrated.

I guess it is hard for us old fogies to accept that what was once the common and obviously correct way to do an RPG is now "fringe." Choice and consequence, limited character ability, factions, static world with dangerous areas... these were all things that every RPG did when I was a teenager and for a decade after that. Now everything has to be super streamlined and not at all challenging, and I think that svcks, "fringe" opinion or not.

That said some minor tweaks could turn Oblivion into a great RPG, and I hope some of those tweaks are done in Skyrim. The best example would be Fallout: New Vegas, which took the base of Fallout 3 and really turned it into what I would consider a true RPG. If Bethesda allowed Obsidian to do that, I hope it means they will follow some of their example.

Nice poll choices

I think Bethesda's approach is generally fantastic, which is why they have so many passionate fans. But I maintain that Oblivion was rushed and unfinished, and that's why the "Morrowind lovers" are so vocal - because they have every cause to be concerned about the future of the series! To many, it seemed like Oblivion was a step in the wrong direction, I like to think of it as a half step in the right direction. Luckily, from what little information we've gotten about Skyrim things do seem to be looking up, and the direction is promising.

It's the same with me. Browsing the Skyrim General Discussion forum makes me feel like my IQ has dropped ten points.

I second this. Too many illogical people, and far too many pessimists.

Nice post. I think the gameplay will be great and I do agree with you, though I will miss attributes and think that the gameplay can be just as good with them.

well that's just a matter of having a [censored] GM.

also, Bioware's always done that; they don't cater to player expectations so much as they just prefer making that kind of game because they're generally pretty good at that kind of game, and people generally enjoy the games they release. i'm not big on Bioware's actual WRITING QUALITY as of late, but they're trying out some pretty interesting ideas, especially with Mass Effect and all the divergent stuff that goes on in that. i hope more developers take note of that concept and we start to see it in more games, because there's a lot of potential in it.

also you're a little off-base in assuming you know what people want. what YOU want is a sense of player agency. if you want total reactivity in a video game you probably know based on their track record that Bioware's not going to be making your dream game anytime soon.

also - computer RPGs are very different from tabletop RPGs, and it's important that you don't confuse the two. tabletop RPGs are known for being completely open-ended, where the tone can change at a moment's notice because you do something unexpected or because the GM throws a completely unexpected plot twist at you. it is not yet possible for a computer to do that - they can take a limited number of potential player actions into account and respond accordingly, but they cannot respond accurately to every single eventuality.

early computer RPGs were just dungeon crawlers with very simple, throwaway plots, and gradually this evolved into two distinct paths - games with pre-determined narrative paths that the player is able to influence within set guidelines, like Fallout and Arcanum, and games that just provide exposition and allow the player to create a narrative, like Elite and Mount & Blade and Dwarf Fortress. a lot of subgenres between the two were founded, and a lot of genre lines were blurred, but computer RPGs can generally be lumped into either "interactive narrative" or "emergent narrative".

TLDR

So now we're complaining about complaining about complaining?

I take it back. Maybe Bethesda should look at these forums when they want to see how people are responding to these changes because the poll results so far certainly don't reflect the "Morrowind is, and always will be the best" crowd.

Didn't expect these results but I'm happy to see it.

I think the changes are for the better. Losing the ability to make custom spells is a small price to pay for Duelwielding or more enhanced Magical Spells. :flamethrower:

Elf action, It's all this game needs.

My greatest dream is to have this poll posted in a Bethesda boardroom. I would die from joy.

I think bethesdas going into the right direction less bad more good. Less essential characters, less system/game mechanics abuse, less level scaling, less boring environments(epic view sounds amazing).
I think the hardest of the hardcoe Morrowind fans will enjoy this game.
Of course this is all optimistic.