New Vegas's endings were undermined by the fact that game systematically shows how both the NCR and Legion are ultimately doomed to collapse, and have no chance at a future.

The changes you make mean nothing beyond the immediate, as it will end the same no matter what in a few years, total collapse of civilization on the west. And This isn't even taking Avellone's tunnelers and Ulysses nuking everything inserts into the equation.

The only people with an actual future are the Khan if they leave the Mojave and make an empire n Wyoming.

Ulysses was a mad man and Avellone's opinions weren't shared by the other members of Obsidian or the development team of New Vegas. In fact it's widely known that several people think it's better to have the factions like NCR and Legion stay the way they are instead of retconing the entire west coast by a nuclear strike.

The Legion is the only one I can see actually failing due to their warlike nation and once Caesar is gone they essentially lose their god. NCR while having problems is a constitutional republic, it can be fixed and given that it's people are one of, if not the most, intelligent in the wasteland due to public education it having a non-violent revolution and reform is very possible. The NCR isn't doomed if it wins the Mojave and it's not suggested in any of the endings.

You forget

-The NCR is running out of water. According to Hanlon, they have drained basically all the lakes and aquifers out west.

http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Hanlon%27s_dialogue

-The NCR is about to face MASS starvation in 10 years unless they find a major new food source ASAP.

http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Thomas_Hildern%27s_dialogue

-The NCR's rapid expansionism is pissing people off, to the point of possible rebellion

http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Marcus%27_dialogue

-Not to mention the NCR's government is bloated, corrupt, inefficient, and generally most people hate them.

Nothing you do in-game changes any of these things. The Mojave isn't a magical panacea to all the NCR's water and food problems, hell, the Mojave cant even feed itself, and relies on food from the NCR. The NCR is doomed, they have no water, no food, their people hate them for rolling over their, and their government is as broken as can be. Literally every single factor that can be stacked against them is, and none of this was written by Avellone, but by Sawyer and the others.

-House cant succeed because the NCR can't, as all of House's plans rely on draining the NCR dry of money to build his idealistic future.

http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Robert_House%27s_dialogue

-The Legion cant succeed because no one actually follows Caesar's ideals, only Caesar, once he is dead the Legion will begging to fall apart as no one has the skill he does. We can see this in the Enclave Remnants ending, where is stated Caesar's successors lose hundreds of Legionaries trying to hunt down the Remnants to no avail.

The three factions are doomed to non-existence, NV's base game makes this abundantly and systematically clear, Avellone just put an overkill switch in Lonesome Road's tunnelers and nukes.

As far as we know the only case of rapid expansion is into the Mojave because the NCR wanted to get it before the Legion did. The lakes being drained up is because they neglected the dams, if the NCR wins the war they get not only a large body of water but control of all water on the Colorado river as it all leads to Hoover Dam. They understand mass starvation is a problem that's why they ARE TRYING to fix it.

Corrupt, inefficiency and bloated are all things that can and probably will be fixed by the fact that the citizens have a voice, they have the ability to impact the government and the fact most people think negatively means reform by a non-violent revolution is possible. The NCR isn't stupid, they're smart and for all we know the groups trying to fix problems like lack of water and lack of food are being done in other places throughout the republic.

The NCR has the possibility to survive, they aren't perfect and yes they have problems but that doesn't mean they're doomed to extinction because of dialogue from a few NPCs.

The problem isn't that all factions are doomed to extinction, the problem is you refuse to look past the negative and think that what a few NPCs stated is going to be written in stone and not fixed. All problems can be fixed and I wouldn't be surprised that ONE OF THE MOST INTELLIGENT FACTIONS OF THE WASTELAND is working on solutions. Hell, if they figure out a way to purify and de-salt the ocean water they pretty much have a near endless supply of water as they cover a large amount of land along the pacific.

The problem is you lack hope and think everyone else should without looking at the very possibility that the NCR can and most likely will fix these problems.

Besides, if they ever did a sequel in the southwest or west coast without picking a canon ending for New Vegas, they'd almost have to destroy both factions and leave the control of the Mojave a mystery. That might be why they wrote the factions to be so doomed in the first place. New Vegas would demand a Fallout version of the Warp in the West.

Like I said, the idea of a canon ending for New Vegas being "everyone is dead and the wasteland is back to being the wasteland!" is heavily criticized by Obsidian itself, don't take Avellone's words as serious as they are nothing but his opinion. I can write up ways that each faction survives it's problems easily and in believable ways within in the Fallout universe. I think they're not afraid to give a canon ending to New Vegas and I don't think "Screw everything, nuke everything." being a good, or accepted, choice by both the development team and the fanbase.

Even on these forums the idea of "Screw everything, nuke everything" is criticized. It's a lazy way to re-write the west coast and it's a lazy way to make the choices of three games irrelevant.

or not, because unlike TES, we know for a FACT many canon things about the fallout main characters. For example, the first two heroes are known for a FACT to be male and not female, we know for a FACT that Marcus was on the oil rig with the chosen one in the second game, we know for a fact that the BoS was NOT destroyed by anyone, in any of the games, since they appear in fallout 4. We know for a fact that the MASTER was killed instead of talked down. We know that the original Dogmeat died in the Mariposa base.

The problem is that absolutely nothing suggests

-Hoover and lake Las Vegas will become anything more then the dams and lakes of the west.

-Their food problems will be solved, and indeed, their reliance of Vault 22's plant tec to try to fix it suggests it will turn out miserably, like vault 22 did.

-The NCR will do a 180 degree turn, start listening to people, and fix their government. The actions of people like Kimball and Oliver only suggests they will continue down the same ruinous path.

Not to mention the most important factor, that Fallout has always been based on the idea that "war, war never changes", that humans keep making the same mistakes of the past, and keep getting destroyed by them. The entire theme of Fallout is that you cant win by doing the same things as the past, and democracy(NCR), dictatorship(Caesar) and autocracy(House), are all failed systems of the past. They cant win for the same reason those systems failed before "war, war never changes"

There is also this.

I would like a link to that. Not saying its untrue but I have heard people say that so many times, and have never seen a source from anyone at Obsidian saying that.

I think beth will try to do a morally grey conflict and it will be a hit and miss in some areas.

Exactly. Fallout has a long history of making choices canon, hell the entirety of the NCR is proof enough alone as there are several ways to destroy Shady Sands or the NCR yet it still stands.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_endings#Shady_Sands
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_2_endings#New_California_Republic

The first endings of both shady sands and the NCR are confirmed canon with the other endings being non-canon.

Hell, we even have the Vault Dweller's Memoirs, which are written by the OG protagonist himself and detail, in no uncertain terms, his journey throughout the first game, and establish quite a few things as set-in-stone canon.

All this talk about the NCR being doomed because of water or a corrupt government is taking some in-game hints at hard times and drawing the absolute worst possible conclusion from them. The Mojave is not lacking for water, and if they win it, they're set. If House wins it, a deal can be brokered in-game to make sure they are supplied with plenty of water. If the Legion wins, then it won't matter for very long anyway. And a poorly run government doesn't even come close to meaning that they are doomed. It just means they'll have trouble under these people's rule. The current bad regime gets voted out in most of the endings anyway, and in the one where they don't, their policies end up benefitting the NCR anyway by netting them the Mojave. Hell, even a rebellion doesn't mean they'll crumble. It just means more change.

They dont get voted out in an endings actually.

Please, stop misquoting what happened in the game itself. Blatant lying to knock down a game shows that you can't come up with real flaws.

>The Baron was conscripted into the Temerian army after fathering a child with the love of his life.
>During the war in he developed serious drinking problems and did not see his wife for several years. During this period she sought the comfort of another man.
>Enraged to find his wife in bed with another upon return, he brutally slaughtered the man and essentially kept his wife hostage because he still loved her.

This is the backstory you neglect to mention because this simplified version is already a far more human and interesting story than anything from a Skyrim NPC.

>You wouldn't trust the Crones because they're disgusting witches that obviously prey on humans. If you read the book, then you immersed yourself in the lore and deserve to know the truth about the tree spirit.
>In the end the daughter doesn't even go back to the father, and the mother only does it because the binding to the Crones has caused immense damage to her mentally.

So you've basically resorted to lying in defense of Skyrim. This is why I took the time out to write about another game at such length. When I see this I can't help but think you're not willing to be open to other games and opinions of what Bethesda games should have.

It is very heavily implied by House. As in, he straight up says that Kimball will. His entire plan revolves around NCR pinning the blame for their loss on their leaders instead of him. Yes Man sees the logic and borrows this plan as well. We also see Chief Hanlon become Senator or Redding. We know that his ideas directly oppose those of the current leadership. His election is proof that the people of NCR are supporting change.

Not only that, but he intended to forgive her. She didn't get the hint and instead wanted to take his daughter and run away with this other man.

And that literally doesn't change anything about what I said, in fact, the "muh wife cheated on me with another man because I was gone for so long" is itself a cliche as hell trope. Thank you for further proving my point.

And no its NOT human or interesting. Its entirely inhuman, and is more asking to the over glamorized stuff you see on cheesy soap operas rather then real life. And I outright admitted Skyrim's NPCs were just as bad.

Also

-The daughter outright forgivers her father, and only leaves him because of her duties to the order she joined. She tries to go WITH him at first, but her friend from the group she is a part of tells her she can't go because she has duties.

-And the mother being brain damaged isn't why she goes with him, she doesn't actually go with him at all really, he just takes her with the approval of his daughter o that mystic dude in the mountains/

So you've basically resorted to lying in defense of The Witcher 3. This is why I try not to have such kinds of conversations. When I see this I can't help but think you're not willing to be open to other games and opinions of what Bethesda games should have.

It isn't about writing a "morally grey story" it is about presenting factions that are realistic. What makes a group "grey" is that they have good people, and bad people. Mixing those people together is what causes grey, and make someone think what route they want to go. F3 was too black and white, NV too grey. I would rather have too much grey than black and white, however, I would prefer a better mix.

No, what's wrong is that you are unable to look at the game objectively. If you looked at it objectively you wouldn't be using excuses such as "it's a tired trope" to call it bad. It's an intruiging story and one of the most highly rated in the game by the community. If you looked at games objectively you would see that huge chunks of Skyrim and Bethesda games in general lack writing up to the standard of the Witcher, and many, many other games. I've not seen you be critical of Skyrim without adding an imaginary caveat about another game first. How is the game going to ever improve if people defend Bethesda in areas that are SORELY lacking with terrible excuses about the state of other games? World ending dragons, war between the natives and imperialists, demons from another realm causing all sorts of trouble; these have all been done so many times as well. The difference is that it is POORLY executed in Bethesda games. Are you seriously blind to this?

How in he hell is it not human or interesting? It is something that actually freaking happens to humans, and the characters in W3 respond to the situation in very human (read: flawed) manners. The fact that it is one of the more popular quest arcs in the game clearly shows that just because you apparently find it uninteresting doesn't mean that it is. You're basically summarizing the characters in the most 1-dimensional way possible, whereas it's clear to virtually everyone else that they were more than you're giving them credit for.

Skyrim's NPCs are FAR, FAR better then Morrowinds at least........

That's true, most of the Morrowind NPCs regurgitate the same lines as everyone else in an area. I always put it down to budget restrictions though. It also had a certain charm

If they wanted to portray "real" people, they wouldn't use morality to do so, as morality is nothing but fiction, and trying to define people with it will only get you that, fiction.

Grey seemingly exists in real life solely because everyone has individual will, and everything that happens is simply the result of all those individual wills clashing.

Games do not, and can not, show this. For the simple fact that they are games, trying to tell narratives, and narratives are, by the nature of being narratives, unrealistic, as the real world does not work on some developer created master story plan, it just IS. The sheer fact of having a narrative destroys any realism, and it ultimately puts the PC in a place of unrealistic power and position, and then forces everyone around the PC to bind to this same unrealistic setting, thus destroying the realism of them as well.

Trying to insert grey as a means of realism into something that is naturally not realistic only borders on the worst of armchair intellectualism, on the same level as garbage like Inception, and Lost, that try to make things more complicated then they actually are, in some vain attempt to be "clever" or "smart" or "thought provoking".

I would rather not be so intellectuality insulted by a game developer thinking that I am so simple minded that I cannot see this, and cannot see how their attempts to force realism on their NPCs, which are intrinsically not realistic due to being wrapped up in these unrealistic and over dramatized narratives, only further makes how "crafted" and "developed" and "created" they are.

I would rather games just admit that they are what they are, narratively terrible forever, and try to focus on giving the player more to actually do, rather then mazes of false choices akin to The Pitt or NV being passed off as depth.

I honestly don't get how people enjoy this, but then again, I honestly don't get what people saw in the false ending of Inception either, but apparently it was great and "thought provoking" to so many people.

Now now we all know the WORST NPCs were in Oblivion. Beggar turns into an aristocrat in matter of seconds.

This. Hope it's different, but Fallout games have always had a black/white main plot.

Oh, the irony.