You know, I've heard many folks comment about how meaningless and stupid the chit chat of the NPCs were in Oblivion. But I've thought about it quite a lot. I've even gone to the grocery or pub a few times with the intent to listen to the idol chit chat of others in real life. Yes, they talk about the mudcrabs or something happening in Morrowind or in Summerset Isles or various other tidbits that get repeated by many NPCs. But out here in the real world, I repeatedly hear about someone spotting a grizzley or weather comments or what the biggest news of the day is. And I can see 30 folks in a row and that is what I hear. "Did ya hear David saw a grizz the other day?"
"OH yeah? Were was it?"
"Over near the Parks place."
"Umm, better keep our eyes open."

And it will peat and repeat the same for two weeks when the story changes just because the person that saw it changed and the place they saw it changes, but you will hear it again, over and over.

People chit chat. They talk about the weather, they talk about the area interests and they talk about the news. And that is what that was. It was pvssyr and it did add a "feeling" of the place being alive. Of it being a place like any other place where folks meet and greet and have polite chit chat. That is all it was.

Now when someone had something to say they had longer lines and they would speak to you and tell you some important stuff. Sometimes they would speak to a group of you to talk about hist or give a pre-battle pep talk to his troops. Some of the lines were very good and a few brought a chill to the surface of my skin or in Shivering Isles, a grin to my face. So to dismiss all of that by chipping in some insult to how the chit chat was handles really does seem to do a disservice to the writers and actors of the game.

Now if you were not moved by any of the presentations in any way at all and really do believe the writing and voice acting to be of horrible attempts, then I suggest you just really did not like the game and just wanted to look for things to bash on.

Myself, I loved the AI that Oblivion brought to the series. I loved being out running through the woods where I'd been already 20 times and all of a sudden there is some guy sneaking through the woods welding an axe. "OMG!!!! is he going to kill me?" Where the heck did he come from. Then I realize, he's out hunting for deer as I see him get one as swift as can be. And then I realize he lives two doors down from me in Burma. It added a lot to the game for me. As much as I loved Morrowind, it's stagnant and silient NPCs drove me a bit batty. Oblivion brought those npcs to life for me with AI and schedules and even a bit of freedom to steal a loaf of bread and recieve a death sentence for it (or for not halting for the police when told).

So, where you find fault, I find life and a feeling of a hustle bustle about town, even if all they are interested in is grizzliesmudcrabs.

I was literally moved to tears when the homeless beggar said "Thank you kind sir!" in such a heartfelt voice that it wasn't even his normal one, and with an expression on his face that only a mother could love.


I, too, enjoyed crazed imperial rangers shooting each other in the chest.

:D

Bethesa going a bad path?
Well it depends.
If your looking for interesting in depth RPG then, definitly yes.

I play elder scroll series since arena...a long time.

The general trend is that Bethesda was born as an inovative gaming company, which deliver more than the usual. Right now imho she is going to deliver the usual.

For me Oblivion IV was the worst cenario possible. Probably because i was a RPG pen & paper player and with such background this mean you don t care much about gfx but way more about the tale and the settings around it, i love to read and explore.

So following the MW -> Oblivion 4 trend we see:
Arcadish gameplay (fingerplay above stats, rendering character development useless), a much smaller world (could be run in 15mn in its wider range).
Althought an interesting history, is has been badly implemented due to tons of development mistakes like the: "everybody?s like raymond" features where every ennemy is your level; the fact you could complete game lvl 2, side quests irrelevents to the main quest or lore, althought some where interesting, almost (90%?) all quest solved by bashing.
Display of irrelevent and dwnright stupid features: Voiced act, or you get it totally voiced or not, voiced act take too much space, narrrow too much the RPG possibilities and act little to the atmosfere. And the cherry of the cake: the RAI engine with it downright utterly stupid or incoherent speeches which would take out any immersion.

As for Fallout 3 i wasn table to get into the game, even having played fallout 1 and 2. It remembered me too much of a croos of FPS (finger skill with weak RPG (only raise combatskills and your done) The athmosphere at the beginning is awesome, but it kept loosing so fast i bored quickly, maybe i was too ressentfull to oblivion let down, for me fallout 3 was a nail in Bethesda coffin, it represented 2 brand of games destroyed.

Now anolysing a little how things got there:
Bethesda was a PC gaming comapany which offer a much wider deck of possibilities than a console, even to this days due to gaming styles.
When Bethesda offered MW to console market they switshed to console first then PC. This mean they had to obey to the following demands:
Less complicated plots
Lesser commands due to console controls limitaton (althought some accept a keyboard nomadays)
Less options as classes and skills
and less stats based games due to japanese style RPG, which are much more Action based than RPG based.


And let anolyse wat we got now:
- we dont see any TES under development in bethesda site...
- All the games being developed are industry bland (same as others) including a generic FPS(brink) as if the market doesn t have enought of such, something that i cant place but is for 2 people, more consolish impossible, and a sequel to fallout.
- As it has been mentioned before and rightfully, the trend in industry, is quick shortly lived games, extremelly pushed visually but shallows. The idea is that the player tire quickly so he is ready to buy your next title and so on.

So if you expect a deep RPG that offer you many choices, full of interesting quest that interweb themselves with tons of content, unless i missed something in fallout 3, don?t hold your breath waiting for Bethesda or next TES.

OK, I think we've gone far enough one way, let's take this the other way. :nono:

Now, I realize that I'm not the typical RPG purist that seems to dominate these boards but I have cut my teeth on some good RPGs: all the Final Fantasy games that were on the SNES, Shinging Force for the Sega, FF Tactics for the PS1, Diablo 1 and Diablo 2.

Oblivion was an absolutely fantastic game. Very very immersive, very very entertaining, and still my favorite game of all time. Oblivion was not "shallow!" The story elements could have used a bit more, and I felt it a little silly how fast I gained in the guilds, it just simply does not matter. The game itself was very deep. Radiant AI is not a graphical touch, it is a game mechanic and it made the cities (while small) feel very very alive. I spent hours just walking my way through Cyrodil, enjoying the geography, the changes in environment and digging my way through another WELL DESIGNED dungeon when I found it.

In playing with the player creator a alot, I was able to create characters that truly looked the way I wanted them to. I created a elder nord that was a Viking fantasy (he later contracted vamipirsm and got even older) and was nearly as fast a bay horse, I made a female Breton custom magic class, who was not only beautiful but able to kill the gatekeeper in 10 seconds, an Argonian assassin with a great set of illusion skills. I made 10 or so other design characters that I never took much further than the Imperial Sewers. The point is character creation was in depth! And, not only this, it was fun to make a non-archetype character. I could choose to make a fighter who was just plain fast or a stealth character who's main ability was paralyze (instead of chamelon). You had freedom and lots of it, both in design and implementation of your character.

Going back to Radiant AI, this added so much to the game that I don't even know where to begin. In every RPG l'd played before the shopkeepers kept shop 100% of the time, never closing to go home or to eat or live. The 24 hour schedules added a level of immersion that I'd never known before. Oblivion has a semi-living world. The AI had some funny moments, caused by its power and not its weakness. My Oblivion partners (roommates) called some NPCs a "game glitch" because you could find a man from town at a dungeon door. To the usual frame of reference at that time, AI wasn't so smart as to do it's own exploring, take care of its own desires all to add to the FRESHness of your EXPERIENCE. So things could happen that didn't expect. The first time I went into a fort containing both Marauders and Bandits, I didn't understand. I had to come to understand the importance of factions to AI behaviour. I didn't have to be target #1 for all enemies, how novel! It helps me that I love AI. I have spent many hours working with AI based games like NERO, and virtual life programs like Darwin's Pond.

The combat system was simple and highly versitile. Clicking a button it was not. You could click all you want with a poorly designed character, you were going to do no damage and then be knocked over and be vunerable! Passive block became manual block but block didn't stop you from getting wacked if you were overpowered. Not only that the combat AI was decent. They would block, they would back up. If you were outnumbered they would fan out. I had many challenging battles and was thoroghly amazed by this system. I only found a markedly better one once I played Mount & Blade - which is a specific battlefield combat game. I could not complain about this feature.

I did find the leveling system a bit odd but it allowed me to make what I wanted to make in the end. I would like to see this aspect improved. I accepted it like a flaw in a girlfriend: here's what I have to get over to get the really good stuff a little later.

I found the story telling to be quite good. I realize that you rarely had to make a deep choice but I was excited thoughout the story. I came to understand some elements of the character of Martin, through conversation. Lo' he was not completely flat but had a background and a particular set of anxieties. Maybe it could be better but it did feel pretty epic the first go round, anyway. Maybe it's just me but I felt connected to Jauffrey and Martin, that is a huge part of story telling. I expect it in a movie and I expect it in a game.

The game world had things like regional flora that made it seem real. If you look through the list of plants on the Wiki at the plants, most of them were created for Oblivion, not Morrowind. The alchemical system was elegant and fun. I didn't make a character who didn't use this skill to great effect. It was great fun to search for rare ingredients and design (yes DESIGN) my own potions. I went nuts the first time I found the Mana Bloom flowers. "I have to get as many of these as possible before anything else happens!" They were, after all, exclusive to Paradise before the plugins.

Basically, Oblivion is fun. Beth didn't take a bad path (except the levelling system). Maybe Morrowind's story was just too good and too engaging. Maybe it was one of those great once-in-lifetime epic stories. I actually tried to play Morrowind after Oblivion. I didn't even come close to engaging the story and maybe I should have kept playing it more. I was a bit frustrated compared to Oblivion, the game world seemed dead. It didn't feel as vibrant or alive. Oblivion was clearly a massive improvement, (although I can't speak on the story) in terms of mechanics and innovated game play.

I sort of agree, but it wasn't necessarily a step in the "wrong" direction. There were alot of things that needed to be fixed, but, like Betrayer said, it was still too much fun to be considered "bad" or even "needs improvement". Also, people should compare Oblivion to other non TES games, not just Morrowind all the time. Although that is probably the best comparison, if Oblivion was the only TES game ever released, it would be pretty awesome in comparison to most RPGs.

Why not? For 55% of the community at www.oblivion.pl (polish official TES pages) Oblivion wast the WORST ES game ever. Ane the fact that it sold succesfully just shows that some pople may like mindless games with dumbed lore, fewer quests, lame dialogues, bland characters and teh graphix.

So you pull out a statistic from a polish forum that is 5% in your favor, to establish an Appeal to Popularity fallacy, and then dismiss it's international success on grounds that people like the opinionated attributes you give Oblivion. *sigh* surely you can do better than this.

Well I'm just saying that one can say that is is a bad for him. Sorry for that rant, maybe I shoud hold off with that or it may end bad for me :rolleyes:

I understand, it's true, people can say it's a bad game, just not necessarily Objectively.

No can say anything objectively, but that doesn't mean one can just dismiss their opinions because one disagrees with their conclusions. It seems that every time someone spends more than a few posts talking about why they don't like Oblivion someone claims they're just jumping on a bandwagon. Oh sure, I'm jumping on a bandwagon that didn't even exist 3 years ago, and I was one of the first people on the forums complaining.

And the difference between whining and complaining is that we try to do it without starting fights, without stirring up crap, and while trying to give comparisons about why we believe something was better and how it can be made to be better in the future. We try to get something done, rather than sit in our own filth and cry all day.

After playing Morrowind for the first time in 5 years for the last 3 days....
I have to say yes, with Oblivion, I feel like it WAS a step in the "wrong" direction. But that doesn't mean Oblivion was a "bad" game. It was just not as good as Morrowind.
It improved on some things, graphics, magic system, first is irrelevant to me, second is huge. But it also feels *so* less epic than Morrowind. Right now I'm playing morrowind, a 8 or so year old game? And I'm having more fun than when I play Oblivion. That shouldn't be the case, but it is.
Morrowind is just a better game. :shrug:
Now, I don't see the point in choosing BETWEEN the two games. Oblivion has it's ups, and it's downs. Morrowind has it's ups, and it's downs. Both are great fun, one is just more so. But that doesn't mean I would choose one or the other. I'll take both, please.

I think with TES:V, Bethesda needs to take a look back and morrowind, and THEN oblivion. And then realize what they need to do. I actually wouldn't mind it if TES:V was text based. I actually really enjoy that about Morrowind right now. Reading is fun, and more immersive. Makes your imagination do the work, and not the "l33t gr@phix".

Worst Elder Scrolls, ever. Not worst game ever.

The fact that the worst game in a series is still a massive hit is a testament to the strength of the developer.

In any case, I agree, Oblivion was a slight step in the wrong direction. They immediately rectified that, though, with Shivering Isles and Knights of the Nine- a step back towards Morrowind's lore and depth of story. The books also restore my hope for a large part.

Morrowind was a success in our eyes, but in the gaming community as a whole it wasn't nearly as big. Oblivion is a game that everybody can recognize. Morrowind, not so much.

I'd say that depends, If you came to you conclusion because of your opinion, then if I dismiss your conclusion, then I can't do so without dismissing your opinion as well. You can usually tell when someone is jumping on the bandwagon, because the arguments are rehearsed and copy paste, and usually exaggerated to a point where they factually contradict the game, and no one who prefers morrowind is going to correct such an argument, at least I have yet to see it, because as usual in such debates, it's not about the game, only the image, not that this applies specifically to this thread.



There are things wrong with Oblivion, Morrowind, and Daggerfall as well, the problem is that when you overstate flaws of one while downplay or even ignore the flaws of the other, you throw that whole "without stirring up crap" and "made to be better in the future" out the window.

No can say anything objectively, but that does not mean one should not at least try to.

Complaining about an older game in the series really doesn't get one anywhere (unless its in the TESV Ideas and Suggestions, in which cases suggestions must come with the complaint) because those games have already been complained about to hell and back, just as with Oblivion. In addition, complaining about old games doesn't work well when the newer game's features may better reflect the intents of the developers. For instance, we won't see a return to the almost no-leveled lists of Morrowind (they were leveled, but barely). Instead, they will focus upon more level scaling, like in Fallout 3, where the game is still heavily leveled but to much better effect over Oblivion.

Nevermind.

I loved Elder Scrolls III but the game play pissed me of in it tho, the story was great, and it was a huge map to explore which I loved. Oblivion did get littler in size, but I liked the fighting in it a whole lot better. If some way they could combined Elder Scrolls III with IV that would be a epic game.

I think it does, because the flaws of Oblivion can be a consequence of trying to correct flaws in the former games, there's a trend where something is flawed in a game, and then gets replaced with another flaw in the sequel, then the former gets portrayed as having no flaw to begin with.

I don't feel one can always correctly estimate the developers intent, for example, no crossbows, throwing stars, no spears, no medium armor ? that doesn't make any sense, and usually it has nothing to do with the game and more to do with deadlines and other such obstacles.

Not that it is impossible to guess the thought process of developers, since you have brought it up, level scaling is obviously a system to make it more challenging, it works, it just works so well it doesn't make sense in the context of the world, poor thugs with daedric weapons, weak rat turns to super rat, the nerfed weapon damage, works against it, since the scale system tries to make it harder, while the nerfing tries to make it easier, and it becomes 10 min. battle of just hacking each other, as a result of high health and low damage. but the idea is good enough, it should just be handled better, like you say, F3 did it splendid as far as I am concerned.

This is part of my beef with Oblivion No one even knows it's bigger until measured, because it's full of crap.

This quote pretty much sums up my feelings:

Over time, it seems many people have forgotten the most important ingredient to a good gaming experience. THE GOOD GAME! And by game I'm not refferring to good shader effects, high polygon count, compelling story, or any of the other irrelevent nonsence I don't give a submarining [bad word here] about. I mean the actuall game play: the part where you control stuff, have it interact with other stuff, and then your brain generates fun! If I wanted a compelling story, I would read a book. There's only a few million of them already in existence, the majority which are written by..... [skip some stuff] If enduring ninety minutes of CGI cutscenes, double polography voice acting sounds exciting to you, I suggest you immediately navigate your webbrowser to the neighborhood torrent site and start downloading something called a movie. [Don't actually do this] Any of them really, because apparently your very easily satisphied. Perhaps I'm romantisizing the past here, but I remember a time when most games were about being challanged to explore new gameplay mechanics, about learning and solving new puzzles, about improving your skills against all types of adversaries, and about feeling proud of your accomplishments. Now they're mostly shiny particle effected vesiles guiding any soccermom caliber gamer through a generic third grade level story where anybody with a brain the size of a steriod shrunken testicle can pretend to be a hero and maintain a fantasy of not svcking [ommitted by me] at video games.
"But, but I need a reason for what I'm doing."
"Motivation for my character."
"A backstory!"
Would you really need a backstory to play donkey kong you [ommitted]? How 'bout football, or poker?

Rest is irrelevent. Taken from zero coordination at Purepwnage.com

you will be hard pressed to find dialogue of Oblivion.. "quality" out in the real world.



a real connoisseur of Roleplaying games, i see.

It's more than 5% in favour, there's 4 Elder Scrolls games in the core series and several more if you count Battlespire/Redguard/The rest of them. That 55% said Oblivion was the worst game in the series says that more than half the (admittedly polish, a fairly small part of the greater community) think the newest game in the core series is the worst game in the series. This is compared to 2 not-quite 3D games from the 90s and the much loved but flawed Morrowind. It means 55% of that community think Oblivion was a worse game than Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind and possibly Shadowkey etc. If the question was "which is worse, Morrowind or Oblivion?" you'd be right, but as phrased it's statistically significant.

Anyway, I feel the problems with oblivion were essentially caused by a few awful design choices: The overdone leveling system, the misuse of voice acting, the lack of guilds and the lack of anything interesting to find outside of the main quest and guilds... It was an open world game with an essentially pointless open world.

And thus, Fast Travel was reborn!

No wonder Todd kept going on about "skipping boring stuff you've already seen before."

Daggerfall is also heavily level-scaled, and easier than Oblivion, but where are the people claiming it was a hack and slash game? Instead, people claim that it is a much better RPG than Oblivion. It really isn't. Daggerfall is a generic(truly generic), hack and slash(nothing interesting to do, wildly swinging one's weapon until the enemy is defeated) game full of level-scaling. Do these complaints seem familiar? Unlike Oblivion, however, Daggerfall really excels at generic, level-scaled, and hack and slash gameplay. Yet, people claim Daggerfall is a true RPG while Oblivion is a hack and slash game. Daggerfall is easier than Oblivion. Oblivion actually had more interesting environments, more balanced level-scaling, and more stuff to do than just hacking and slashing.

I can't agree, As you say it doesn't represent the whole community, and forums don't represent the majority of the people that even play/are fans of the games, there's no guarantee that the people that voted have even played all of the games, or even any of the games. What it shows is that 55% of voters of a polish part of the community, who have played { Zero < X < All } of the TES games, found oblivion to be the worst TES game. The condition and age of the former games are also irrelevant given that the people that play and enjoy them obviously aren't concerned with 3d graphics, at the very least it shows that technology enhances quality, but it does not hamper it.

So to sum up:

it's irrelevant to the state of Oblivions quality, that the poll says that 55% of that the community thinks Oblivion was a worse game than Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind and possibly Shadowkey etc. Because:

It's not the whole community,

It doesn't guarantee that voters have played the relevant games, and even if both were true, the condition of the former games would not testify to quality of most recent games since quality is enhanced but not dependable on Technology.

And most importantly, even if 99% of the whole community found Oblivion to be the worst, if you're going to use it to judge the actual quality of Oblivion, it's still an Appeal to Popularity, which is a logical fallacy.



Overdone level system, -> I agree.

Misuse of voice acting, -> I agree.

Lack of anything interesting to find outside of the main quest and guilds -> I do not agree.

It was an open world game with an essentially pointless open world. -> I didn't find it pointless at all, but I feel I'm not understanding you correctly in this particular line..

Honestly, I've gotta draw the wild card here and blame the de-evolving PC game on console marketing.

Developers are pressed to pump out an extremely efficient game. The more complex a game is, the less efficient it is, and the less copies you can sell to the masses. Developing games cross-console really pumps up dividends, but you've got to cater to a more limited system.

PC games are losing some complexity quickly. This makes RPG's seem less...well, RPG, and more clicky-shooter or bland adventure. However, I disagree that much quality is lost, because great care is still take to ensue that, overall, they're still *fun* to play. Just not as complex.

These trends are evident not only with Bethesda, but in a big way with Bioware. Compare Morrowind to Oblivion, and then compare Mass Effect to its sequel. Same plight, same evolution. Big nerfs in the RP department, but good changes as far as playability and efficiency.

This is the evolution of the gaming market. Unfortunately it is driven not by its creative minds, but by its business. Were Picasso told by a producer to pump out five paintings a week on three different materials, he'd probably cut his own ear off. Or was that the other guy? :cookie:

However, I'm not complaining. Bethesda hasn't disappointed me once, ever. Even as a die-hard RPG-nerd, I don't mind the console feel of Oblivion, or the shooter feel of Fallout, but I do believe their creative force is missing out on some things they know they want to experiment with - in favor of speedy development.