Um if you get Unreal Engine 3 you get Source Codes if you get Unreal Development Kit (UDK) you don't get Source Codes Unreal Development Kit (UDK) is built off of Unreal Engine 3 though and is the same thing just without Source Codes.

You can use it for free after you make $50,000 (USD) profit you pat $99 + 25% royalties Epic Games still gives you all the Source Codes you want when you license their Unreal Engine 3 same applies for (UDK) which you get for Unreal Engine 3 UE3 gets Source Codes but (UDK) does not yet you still get (UDK) with UE3.

Let me make this clear I use Unreal Engine 3 in college and it comes with Unreal Development Kit (UDK) for free with all the Source Codes as well you pay $99 + 25% royalites after the $50,000 profit when you sell your video games using Unreal Engine 3 which comes with the Unreal Development Kit (UDK) tool.

UE3 and (UDK) are both free to anyone after $50,000 it is not.

To get back closer to the topic - Bethesda probably does not want to use U3/UDK...or better: did not want to, because we do not know how they will reinvent the game for TES 6.

I doubt a CK update would be necessary. Probably just an edit to the skill menu file.

SkyUI team could probably hook up some sort of framework for adding new trees.

I'm really surprised this hasn't occurred to anyone.

As I may have mentioned once or twice before in this thread, http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1386363-wipz-hud-widget-framework/

The only reason it hasn't been released formally (if I understand matters correctly) is that it's waiting for the next SKSE release.

Yeah I don't really understand why people are even arguing over all that.

The point is that Beth uses some third party technology. We KNOW they use it. And they are not licensed to redistribute it. What engines other people use or games use or licensing applies is entirely irrelevant because we know what Beth uses...

That's completely unrelated...

I know Bethesda uses the Nettlemerse/GameBryo Engine which is a modified into the Creation Engine I never said they should use Unreal Engine 3 on The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim I said they should use it for Fallout 4 or The Elder Scrolls 6 and as I keep saying there was a video interview with Epic Games President Mike Capps who was talking about Unreal Engine 4 and how things like lighting, fluids, liquids, particles, and the C++ Source Codes are all rendered in real time and on the fly in the Editor of Unreal Development Kit (4) (UDK) (4) for Unreal Engine 4 and he even said Todd Howard liked it alot which could of been a hint that Bethesda and Todd Howard might use Unreal Engine 4 for Fallout 4 and if not for Fallout 4 then maybe possibly for The Elder Scrolls 6 because Unreal Engine 4 is 10X better than the GameBryo Engine and the modified GameBryo Engine that is the Creation Engine.

Unreal Engine 4 can do so much more in rendering in real time and on the fly instantly and lets face it if they want to make things like foliage, particles, liquids, fluids in 3D and in real time rendered in the video game not 2D anymore with shaders and trickery then they will have to use Unreal Engine 4 for The Elder Scrolls 6 because there is now way the GameBryo Engine/Creation Engine can do that unless they do a major major over haul of those video game engines to do all that stuff in 3D and render it all in real time.

Well, obviously I bow to your superior knowledge on the subject /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':smile:' />

Still, as I understand it:

• The Perks screen is implemented in scaleform
• Scaleform uses flash widgets
• We can replace the vanilla widgets with our own container movieclips, and then load the vanilla items as children
• We can then hide the vanilla assets if we wish and display our own variation in their place.
• We can use that approach to hide the vanilla perk screen and display our own
• From the sound of it, that's exactly what Dawnguard is doing.

Which bit did I get wrong?

I'll grant that the Perk Screen is a different menu from the HUD, and as such the HUD Widget Framework isn't going to be directly applicable to this case. Still, I wouldn't have said the thread was completely unrelated to the matter at hand. At least to the extent that we are actually discussing perk trees, anyway.

There's a new perk tree in Dawnguard.

They have the source code, it's their engine. It's not a problem for them.

I can't wait to see what the creators of SKSE will do with it when they release an updated version.

The new Perk Tree in Dawnguard that you get when you become a Vampire Lord if you look at the Perk Tree menu you will see that new Perk Tree only all the other ones will disappear you will just see the new one only however I can't wait to see what the creators of SKSE pull off when they release a newer updated version.

I still think Bethesda should just release this feature in a future DLC or Patch/Update for the Creation Kit so we don't have to download a bunch of mods and keep the Data folder for The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim all cluttered up with those types of mods keeping it free so we can download other mods from mod creators like new spells, armor, weapons, houses, landmasses, etc.

Simply speaking, Scaleform is the name of the Flash player (as in Adobe Flash) that the video game uses. Each menu is an SWF movie written in ActionScript using Adobe's Flash and reacts to input given to it by the game.
Our HUD Widget Framework is a framework designed so that people can load their own , or our own, widgets (SWFs), display them on the HUD, and control them via a papyrus interface. For a more detailed explanation, see our https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1nhbi9wztQq0YrYWMu1IQTC3WA2O3oAXhFxj_izxfQQU/edit.

The perk screen (statsmenu) does not do the displaying of the perks, nor does it position them. It only positions textboxes containing each stat's information.
The statsmenu in an interface to a camera (viewport) which is movable around the stats sphere. The stats sphere contains the constellations (made up of stars) and the background nif.

The star's (each perk's) information is sent to the statmenu SWF by the game as a string, along with the star's azimuth and (it's either distance or altitude, I can't remember off the top of my head). The perk's information is then displayed, scaled, and positioned, according to the viewport's position. It is only the text that is positioned via flash, not the star/constellation positions.

So... You're a werewolf in Dawnguard.... When statsmenu is opened, the game creates a "new" stats sphere, with a new background gif, and new constellations. The position (psi and theta) of each star, and each star's information, are sent to statsmenu, from the game, and are positioned in the correct locations when you move around the sphere with wasd, or clicking. Again, it is only the text that is positioned by flash.

I hope that's clear enough... I'm really poor at explaining things..





What you could possibly do, however, is... not so much modify the existing perk screen, (because there'll never be a nice way of removing the background or having full control over mouse+kb control), but add in your own menu elsewhere. Something we'll be probably be looking into in the near future.

OK, that's a lot clearer. Thank you.

So, given that, could we put up our own full screen widget with an opaque black background? Blot out the vanilla perk screen, put up our own constellations and so forth. Unlike the vanilla screen, we'd drive the start positions interactions entirely from flash. We'd need to make our own perk hander class in Papyrus, but that shouldn't present any major difficulties.

Of course, that assumes that the mouse clicks don't pass through flash and get picked up by the vanilla screen underneath. But otherwise it seems doable.

Or am I grossly over-simplifying things still?


And if we can do that, we can do damn near anything that flash can do. OK, cool. Thanks for the explanation /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

The input will, I think, still "pass through" it so it's probably a lot easier to add a new menu elsewhere. Probably doing it like other games do where you click + or - whatever perk, or perks, you want to increase on level up then click accept.
I'm not saying it's impossible to add new perk trees, it probably is with some SKSE magic, but it would be incredibly, difficult and involve a lot of work!

Hmmm... interesting. OK, thanks, that's going to be very useful /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

Bethesda will have to use Unreal Engine 3 for Fallout 4 and The Elder Scrolls 6 which I doubt they will use instead they could use Unreal Engine 4 for Fallout 4 and The Elder Scrolls 6 because Unreal Engine 4 renders everything in real time particles, liquids, fluids, foliage, lighting, destruction, and clothing simulations and in the Unreal Engine 4 Unreal Development Kit (4) (UDK) (4) editor everything can be done in real time on the fly instantly if Bethesda wants The Elder Scrolls 6 to be this good they will have to do a major major overhaul of the Nettlemerse Engine/GameBryo Engine or the Creation Engine which is a heavily modified version of the Nettlemerse Engine/GameBryo Engine.

Bethesda might use the Creation Engine for Fallout 4 if it is not a next gen title if Fallout 4 does become a next gen title Bethesda will have to heavily modify the Creation Engine or they could go for Unreal Engine 3 or Unreal Engine 4 which is already designed for next gen video game making but seeing as The Elder Scrolls 6 will definitely be a next gen title it is going to have to use Unreal Engine 4 or Bethesda will have to do a major major overhaul of the Creation Engine to be a next gen engine because Nettlemerse Engine/GameBryo Engine/Creation Engine are completely outdated the Creation Engine only supports DirectX 11 for increasing performance Bethesda can release more DirectX 11 features for it such as Tessellation there was an interview where Todd Howard said it can come in a future Patch/Update for The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim.

Except that the Unreal engine isn't built even remotely close to support the type of game that Bethesda makes... The reason the Creation Engine doesn't have 5,000 fancy graphical features is because it's built to use the processing power elsewhere, like maintaining and calculating a persistant world.

Actually Unreal Engine 4 is built for those types of games Bethesda makes the Epic Games employees like Epic Games President Mike Capps, Epic Games Design Director Cliff Bleszinski said that the Unreal Engine 4 is so well built it can be done for FPS, TPS (Third Person Shooter), RTS, RPG, ETC.

I know that that is why the Creation Engine does not have 5,000 fancy graphical features but if they want to make Fallout 4 a next gen title or The Elder Scrolls 6 a next gen title because Fallout 4 might not be a next gen title they are going to have to do a major major overhaul and heavily modify the Creation Engine to do more renderings in real time like particles, fluids, liquids, destruction, lighting, clothing simulations, ETC.

Stop saying Unreal Engine 4 is not good for video games that Bethesda makes because you are not a employee at a video game development company listen to the employees what they say in video interviews and interviews and listen to the people who are in college learning C, C++, Visual Basics, Java Script, ETC.

You really need to stop thinking like that.

*snip*

The reason people are telling you that the engine won't work is because it's balanced more for local area, immediate gruntwork, as opposed to with ES games where it's closer to having an MMO server and hardwired single player client all on one machine. Even more typical RPGs don't care as much about distant areas, while the TES game engines need to monitor stuff elsewhere in case it's important.

Also... citing company bosses and / or PR agents is not exactly the best way to get info, as game company owners / PR people tend to spread propaganda more than actual facts lately. I would be more impressed if an Epic Games dev chimed in than the design director, to be honest, as the design director doesn't often (if ever) work with the guts of game engines like the dev teams do... and the president of the company? Seriously? /sleep.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='-_-' />'

Epic Games Unreal Engine 4 can work very well for The Elder Scrolls if you watch the video with their Senior Technical Artist Allan Willard you can see that Unreal Engine 4 is built very robust and good and the Elemental Tech Demo they showed off shows an open world when it goes outside of the castle you can see huge mountains that are in 3D and open world it is not a background picture of a mountain or a skybox.

I know company bosses and PR agents spread propaganda more than actual facts and the president of the company but all the facts are there for Unreal Engine 4 it is build for any type of video game it renders everything in real time like particles, liquids, fluids, foliage, destruction, lighting, clothing simulations, and even compiling the C++ Source Code is now done in real time in the engine and in the editor.

Since August will be my 3rd year in college studying C, C++, ETC next year in 2013 my professor might get Unreal Engine 4 for the class so we can use it to try and see how good it really is we already use CryEngine 2, CryEngine 3, and Unreal Engine 3 in our classroom.

We even make our own video game engines from scratch from the ground up because my professor forces us to do that so we can learn how to do it on our own so we don't have to rely on other video game engines so if we want to form our own video game development company and make video games on our own from the ground up we can do that to as well.

Sometime around next year possibly in the summer when I have summer vacation I might let everyone know how good Unreal Engine 4 is for making open world RPG video games like Bethesdas TES video games that is when ever Epic Games decides to release Unreal Engine 4 and Unreal Development Kit (4) (UDK) (4) to the public and for commercial use such as colleges.

Again, that is not the issue at hand. You're only looking at this from one end. Yes the Unreal engine can do LOD and huge worldspaces. Sure, a LOT of engines do that. The issue is persistance. Every. Single. Reference. in a TES (or FO3) game is persistant and stores and simulated and calculated constantly. As far as I know NO other games do this. Ever. I'm not aware of a single one. The Unreal engine would need to have half of it rewritten to redirect processing power towards this persistance, ergo there is a loss of graphics. That's why TES game's are super shiny.

Honestly for how much power goes elsewhere, Bethesda did a dang fine job of making Skyrim look better than previous games.

Unreal Engine 4 has it's processing power made for TES open world type video games as well dude I will just wait for next year when ever Epic Games decides to release Unreal Engine 4 and Unreal Development Kit (4) (UDK) (4) to the public and for commercial use such as colleges when I start working on Unreal Engine 4 when my college gets it I will try an open world video game type like Bethesdas with my class mates and professor to see if we can achieve making a video game of that type and I will tell you how good it is or if it is bad at doing it when I finish school and get my summer vacation I will keep you informed on that how does that sound? It sounds better than saying Unreal Engine 4 can't do it now doesn't it?

How about people like myself? Developing software professionally since the mid 80s, B.Sc. in Computer Science and a Masters in Software Engineering? Would that qualify someone to have an opinion on the subject? My CV lists skills in C, C++, C#, Javascript, Perl, SQL and Prolog, and as an indie games developer I can claim hands on experience of Lua, Ruby and Actionscript into the bargain.

And that's just me. If we hunt around the forums a bit, I'll be surprised if we can't flush a PhD or two.

Now don't get me wrong: it's really cool that you're studying this stuff and that you're enthusiastic about it. Likewise, I'm sure we all appreciate that you have some foundation for your opinions. But please don't make the mistake of assuming that no one else has any professional qualifications, or any real world experience.

For what it's worth, I personally think you're over-generalising from a limited data set. I'm sure it would be possible to make an Elder Scrolls style game with UE4, but from personal experience of working with game engines, I suspect it would take significant development time to adapt the engine to support a world as large and as open ended as the TES/Fallout worlds. I'm not aware of anyone who makes games on quite the same scale as Bethesda, and I very much doubt anyone else's tech will work for them out of the box. And of course that's effort spent tying them to someone else's IP which could have gone into improving the Creation Engine. You have to factor opportunity cost into the anolysis.

I also think it highly unlikely that Beth haven't at least evaluated UE4. If nothing else, I'll bet there's at least one developer there with a side project using UE4 to see how well it would work for them.

As for Mike Capps ... he has a vested interested in selling UE4. Nothing wrong with that; his company makes the engine after all. But he's hardly likely to say UE4 is less than ideal for any type of game. That means we need to take his enthusiasm with the same pinch of salt you'd apply to any sales pitch.

We have to wait for Unreal Engine 4 and Unreal Development Kit (4) (UDK) (4) to be released and see how much capabilities it has be patient.

I hope Bethesda gives us the ability to create new perk trees in the Creation Kit before this year ends. If not hopefully the beginning of next year or middle of next year maybe after the 2nd DLC is out.