They wont. Ever. It's a hardcoded thing that can't be altered in the CK...

It can be altered in the CK Bethesda has the Source Code they made the game it is their property I am sure they will decide to change it some time in the future they are listening to their fans alot lately.

There was a modding panel at QuakeCon with Todd Howard and a few employees from Bethesda and Valve talking about stuff like this some people asked questions why some video game companies lock out some mod tools or features to their video games ETC.

Bethesda said they will focus more on giving the PC version of Skyrim more features and abilities in their mod tools in the future and they said that the modding community also creates jobs alot of people at Bethesda and Valve got hired for making great mods.

The video I saw was like 50 minutes or an hour.

So stop being negative please.

Fixed. You do use run-ons a loooot. /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />

Regardless. Bethesda certainly can add the ability to do so, and they sure have shown to be more kind with this game than their previous, but that's still a pretty huge step and I don't see them doing it. Plus there are other more important things I'd rather have, like a dialogue bug fix, or some of the really cool game jam stuff we haven't gotten yet.

Then again custom perk trees would open up a major branch for the modding community. (Pun intended) I just, again, don't see them doing it.

One should also note that there's a loading screen in Dawnguard that says the perk tree for vampires can only be called up with the inventory key while in vampire lord form. If it was so simple for them to add it, why make it so hackish to access in the game? Seems to me even they know their system has some lame restrictions on it and they just used a quick hack to get around it.

I don't think it's very hackish? It's more like a shortcut and a bad design decision. I don't know how the transformation is handled for real, because I haven't looked into it, but when I was testing other things, when I did setrace DLC1VampireBeast, I noticed that TAB only brought up the vampire lord perks tree. I thought this was odd, so I tried pressing "I" and my inventory opened fine. I could also access the other menus. This doesn't seem to be typical behavior, though, since there are already mods that add back the various menus, and looting menus and such.

As I said, I think it was just a poor design decision on Bethesda's part. They figured they would make TAB a shortcut for pressing TAB and "looking to the stars" / selecting the Perks menu, and cripple the vampire lord for whatever reason by disabling looting, the map/journal, etc.

I can understand going to some effort to hide the inventory while in that mode... What the inventory shows as equipped doesn't actually show on your character, etc., since there are not going to be models that fit the vampire lord body for any of the existing armors and things. But I don't think hiding the inventory entirely because of these issues was the most elegant solution.

Voted yes but without too illusions. None, in fact.

Nah, it is hackish.

The reason they have disabled the other menus is because otherwise it would be far too easy to create overpowered vampire builds.

"when I did setrace DLC1VampireBeast, I noticed that TAB only brought up the vampire lord perks tree. " is interesting.
he tween menu shortcut is governed by the game probably by checking the race flag, so perhaps the perk tree is changed in the same manor. Either way, there won't be an easy way to add in new perk trees to the statsmenu.

When you become a vampire, in the vampire change script, it disables player controls, I believe (just like when you have your hands bound at the beginning of the game)... although http://www.creationkit.com/DisablePlayerControls_-_Game there doesn't seem to be a way to disable just inventory and magic menus so perhaps this function has an extra boolean param now?

So it's all right for you to start polls based on how bad the CK allegedly is right now, but I have to be patient and wait for a future release of UDK4 to solve all our problems? That sounds rather like special pleading to me. You don't have any basis for assuming that the next Creation release will be bad, nor for assuming that UE4 will solve all the perceived inadequacies of the Creation Engine.

It's all right to say "I think Skyrim would work better if it was implemented using UE4", but I think you need to recognise that this just your opinion. And personally, I don't think you're doing a particularly good job at supporting that opinion in this debate.


We've already identified at least one viable approach for implementing user perk trees. Your horse would seem to be dead; might I respectfully request that you stop flogging it?


Suppose we concede that the perk screen wasn't especially well designed from the outset? If they re-write the entire system to fix that they risk introducing subtle bugs in all areas of the game. So they identify a entry point that lets them add in extra perk screens without having to alter working code. That's a reasonable approach for live software.

The underlying problem still needs to be addressed, of course, but it can wait until the next game when there's time budgeted for that sort of deep debugging.

Sometimes one man's hack is another man's elegant workaround.

Well said! And the more I learn papyrus and the more i read on these forums of the extreme examples of its use by some of you guys, the more it seems to describe Modding in general /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />

- Hypno

I never said the CK is bad I am just asking Bethesda to release a Patch/Update to give us the ability to create brand new entire Perk Trees instead of adding new Perks to existing Trees.

What? I never said The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim should be switched to run on Unreal Engine 4 I said have patience for Unreal Engine 4 until it is released and see what capabilities it has if it will be possible to make a open world sandbox RPG video game with it and that a TES 6 might be able to run on it.

Why would your horse be dead if you add entire new Perk Trees?

Listen to Arthmoor he knows his stuff Arthmoor, Quaran, and Kivan have been working on fixing just about every single bug in The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion and The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim with their Unofficial Oblivion Patch and Unofficial Skyrim Patch on the nexus.com

And he said that chances are it's a very complex thing to change.

Meaning they wouldn't change it.

Uhm Bethesda can very well change it and give it to us in a Patch/Update they are listening to their fans lately as I said before.

In development, there is usually this thing called a feature list. Each feature has its name, description, priority, and risk. Risk is determined by combining factors such as the limitations in the technology, the number of hours (days, weeks, whatever time scale is relevant), ease of change, etc. Imagine this was low on the priority list, since it is not currently in the Creation Kit. Combining a low priority with a high risk, which seems likely in this case, makes the probability of the feature added to become low. As much as I, and other modders, would love to see the ability to add new perk trees to add numerous skill ideas (Cooking, Mysticism, Fishing, etc.), might cause more design issues to change the decision than to leave it as it is.

If you don't think there's anything wrong with the Creation Engine then why in Oblivion's name do you keep bringing up UE4 and UDK4?

If you do think there's a clear advantage in using UE4 over the next iteration of Creation, then my previous comment applies.

You can't have it both ways.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flogging_a_dead_horse: We've already worked out how to add new perk trees. We sorted it out in this thread. So why, oh why, oh why are you still banging on about perk trees?

TES 6 will have to use Unreal Engine 4 if they want to do full DirectX 11 support to it's full potential something which Unreal Engine 4 already does it renderes more than a million particles at a time in real time as well as destruction, fluids/liquids, lighting, and foliage and the C++ code is also in real time in the editor instantly on the fly it is way more easier and simpler. It allows for powerful debugging and Epic Games also said that it will cut down on development costs Epic Games said that the $60 price for video games is over with Unreal Engine 4 games will end up being sold for $50 again or 40 or even less.

Bethesda will have to do a major major overhaul of the Creation Kit if they want to achieve this in TES 6 which might cost them alot of money so it would be better to use Unreal Engine 4 for TES 6 it will save them boat loads of money and give them the capabilities to make the game quicker bigger and better with less bugs since Unreal Engine 4 has a powerful debugger.

A artist can now do alot of things with Unreal Engine 4 what took a week to send to a programmer now took 2 days it freed up time for the programmer to focus on the complex taxing issues and the artist didn't need to go to the programmer to get this or that made.

Liquids/fluids, lighting, and foliage is all done in real time in 3D now not 2D with shaders and trickery or pre-baked.

No you can't add entire new perk trees you can only add new perks in existing trees.

Yes, it COULD be done, but it WONT HAPPEN. Why? Because the bottom line is BethGS is a business, and no business will do something that will cost them money and gain them nothing in return.

Changing around how the game functions is NOT a smart financial move when the only people that benefit are a handful of modders. Try and understand this.

Ever consider that hes right?

Again, yes they could, but WILL NOT do something that does not benefit THEM. Having the CK is a privilage, and the fact that we can do ANYTHING they can do with the CK is in itself a huge boon for us. They wont release the source code for obvious reasons, and they wont alter the very foundation of the game for the sake of a few people.

Epic said this, Epic said that. Of corse they said all those things about THEIR engine. But what it comes down to is what the individual developer needs for their own game. And sometimes a big powerful engine that was made to accomidate everything, isnt better then one specifically made for your idea.

Switching engines costs MORE money. The development team is used to the engine they've been working on for over 10 years, and changing it on them means more time learning the new engine, AKA, more costs, AKA longer development time.

Switching engines would be a BAN idea for them. And if they dont implement full DX11, so what? Its a progress, and jumping to the latest and greatest is a sure-fire way to cause problems.

Again, this comes to my previous statement. Switching to a new engine increases costs and development time.

Learn the difference between a perk tree and a skill.

We can add new perk trees just fine, but they have to be added to existing skills.

http://static.skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/images/19867-1-1341372915.jpg

This is 2 perk trees under the light armor skill.

While adding the ability to create new perk trees would be fine and very useful for some modders, they really need to focus on releasing the .psc files for Dawnguard so that many people can get back to work on their mods again. This is currently the number one reason that modding in fields such as vampires, werewolves and an unofficial Dawnguard patch aren't going underway as they should, because the people working on these mods are waiting for and in many cases need the source files in order to continue their projects. The lack of .psc files may actually cause many mod projects to fold over permanently if they are never released, and if no viable workaround is produced.

They don't have to switch to the Unreal Engine at all. This is what you don't get: the Unreal Engine is not the only game in town. Beth already reuses their code for future games. Switching would make it much more difficult as they'd have to code everything from scratch. Gamebryo already supports DirectX 11. The rest is nothing but marketing speak.

I feel like in responding to you I'm also flogging a dead horse, as you don't seem to understand--



You know what. Indeed. Good idea.

Solution: Put ActorValues back into plugins (Yes this is possible, no it does not involve reworking the entire game) and make the current perk tree more generic for adding new skills. This wouldn't involve editing the scaleform components (On our end at least) at all if the data sent to the perk tree can be interpreted as a generic tree.

Giving us the ability to create entire new perk trees in the Creation Kit if they give this to us in a Patch/Update I don't think it will cost them a whole bunch of money to give us a patch/Update like that releasing the Source Code on the other hand for us might cost some money but again I don't think it will cost a bunch.

Bethesda can move their Source Code from the GameBryo Engine/Creation Engine to the Unreal Engine 4 for TES 6 it is not that hard especially since Unreal Engine 4 does C++ code on the fly instantly in real time on in the editor now and the fact that it is also a powerful debugger and that it cuts down on development costs.

Trust me releasing a Patch/Update for the Creation Kit so we can have the ability to create entire new perk trees is a benefit to them they stated many times that they will release more things for their fans in the coming months if the fans ask for it they will give it to us like how they are also giving us Game Jam features.

Switching to Unreal Engine 4 will not cost them so much money they can bring/send the Source Code from the GameBryo Engine/ Creation Engine to Unreal Engine 4 I know this because I am a student currently in college studying C, C++, Visual Basics, and Java Script I move Source Code from Unreal Engine 3 to CryEngine 2 or CryEngine 3 once in a while I use all 3 engines on these video game engines it seems a bit hard to move Source Code yes but Unreal Engine 4 they say will be really easy.

And if they don't implement DirectX 11 to it's full portential so what? Uhm when TES 6 comes out it will be either in 2014 or 2016 or when ever it should utilize DirectX 11 to it's full potential by then because the PC is the most powerful system and by then my PC might have 32GB RAM I have 4GM RAM right now soon going to upgrade to 8GB RAM i also have a 4 core processor (Quad Core Processor) going to go for 8 cores as well soon.

I know the difference between perk trees and skills I mean so that we can have the ability to add new perk trees outside of the skill area add new skills as well not add new perks inside existing perk trees that picture you showed me has new perks/ perk tree inside an existing perk tree are in the skill I am talking about seperate from that area.

GameBryo might use DirectX 11 but I don't know if it can use it to it's full potential if they want that for TES 6 they will need to use Unreal Engine 4 or do a major major overhaul of the GameBryo Engine/Creation Engine.

Switching to Unreal Engine 4 will not be so difficult because it is a very easy engine to use now way easier than Unreal Engine 3 or GameBryo Engine/Creation Engine I know Unreal Engine is not the only engine available there are many more but Unreal Engine 4 is very simple easier and faster to use.

Guys. Let's just seriously stop.

Everything we say is either ignored or refuted with a 'No! Because they say so!' and this isn't really going anywhere...

Agreed. I've made my point (in more than this thread, actually), so I'm done here.

No point in reviving this thread yet again, if you ask me.

Or it could be put back on topic (i.e. be about adding perk trees to the UI, or the creation of a custom UI allowing for extra perk trees).