I don't know anything about animation.

But Bethesda said they coudln't even get ladders to work in Gambryo. Might not be as easy as you thought. Imagine though, an ultimate game - where the thief could run rooftops a la assassin's creed. The spell caster could make portals to other places, like in that game where you make portals - I forget what its called. Imagine a warrior lopping off limbs, parrying blades and using whips, balls and chains, spears and crossbows. These are all things that would be cool but aren't happening.

ya didnt see some of the animations in the trailer did you T.C? they look many times more complex then previous titles. but still i agree with one of the earlier posters if animatining is so easy why not try your own hand at it...from scratch....with a budget to keep so your company can turn a profit when you sell the games so the company can survive to make more glorious RPG's like skyrim

Interesting that this has been quietly edited into his previous post.

I think the op thinks that by being a jerk towards the devs and the game, that he's promoting discussion.

Animation isn't the easiest thing to program. I'm hoping for basic improvements but nothing over the top.

I had the same thought. These things you say are easy are, in fact, quite complex and very time-consuming. Could Bethesda do such things? Probably. Would it be as easy as you seem to think? Hell no. Try doing some character animation sometime and tell me how easy it is. You also have to take into account that these animations will interact properly with the environment (i.e. no clipping, it actually looks realistic, etc.) which is even more difficult than actually making the animations themselves. I'm certainly not against people expressing their opinions and things they would like to see (that's what these forums are for, after all) but it irks me to no end when people start talking about how "easy" it is to do these things.

The climbing there is also unbelievably scripted.

Climbing would be neat. I've heard Daggerfall has done this. I'd love to climb the cliffs of Skyrim and skydive from the peak...to my death, but dive nevertheless.

All Daggerfall did is allow you to float up when running directly into flat surfaces. To do such a thing now just wouldn't be acceptable as animations and sensical climbing (edges to grab onto/tools to use for climbing rather than just running up a flat wall as in Daggerfall) are expected. Just because a 1996 game did something doesn't mean a 2011 game should easily be able to do it. While they could do exactly what Daggerfall did with Skyrim if they wanted to, again, the animations and semi-realistic basis are to be expected. Daggerfall's climbing would look ridiculous in a modern game and is completely unbelievable. Imagine loading up even the now outdated Morrowind or now outdated Oblivion and running into a wall (let alone a giant, jagged, bumpy, and realistic mountain) until you start floating upwards along it with absolutely no accompanying animations or just the basic running animation playing. It would be an outdated method that sticks out (negatively) for even those two.

"THIS...IS....SPARTA" *kick*

I like it.

The problem is that alot of things, like Climbing, are done in other games and done very well. It's hard for me personally to believe that Bethesda can't including climbing when a game like Assassin's Creed can.

I know it's a different engine, but it CAN be done. It's just how much time it takes and some things, like climbing, would be a great addition and well worth the time and effort to get it to work.

Didn't ZeniMax aquire Arkane Studios last year? The studio hasn't announced anything, and I'm willing to bet they're not all sitting on their pretty behinds at this point in time. They were responsible for one of, if not the the most fluid first person combat ever, with Dark Messiah of Might and Magic. One could argue about the game's pacing, polish, story, etc, but the mechanics were as solid as it gets.

If I'm not painfully mistaken, I believe the team was involved in the development of BioShock 2, so they're not strangers to aiding development. By the way, Bioshock 2's combat is way more satisfying than the first game's. I wish Bethesda would let us know if those guys responsible for what I believe to be the definitive first person sword combat experience(perhaps rivaled only by Mount & Blade, which is debatable, really) are working on Skyrim, for it would make many a knowleadgeable first action fan a bit more secure >D

Well, it seems like the op's satisfied with the responses. Devs are probably busier than he's giving them credit for. So, lock? I mean, the op hasn't responded, so I guess he's gotten whatever he was looking for, right?

This. He riles everyone up and then disappears from his threads. Probably sits back and watches the carnage ensue. His threads are usually related to graphics as well. It's getting really old now.

How about we see/play a substantial amount of the game before we rip apart the animation system.

Climbing is also a major focus of the Assassin's Creed series. In TES series, it would be one of many far more numerous features and only something a specific group of players would use. Why would the average noble knight or powerful sorceror do such a thing, for example? Everyone plays the thieving assassin who climbs rooftops in Assassin's Creed. That is not the case in Skyrim. Technically, yes, pretty much anything is possible with enough time and effort, but Bethesda isn't a company made of superhumans that can make the ultimate game that implements everything, only buildings were climbable in Assassin's Creed, and there would be very little in a typical Bethesda settlement to climb, anyway, and for very little purpose.

This. I'm glad someone else noticed he starts threads and then just disappears.

Funny thing is, animation would be the easiest part of implementing these.

A kick is easy, but we don't need an extra button for that, just make it a HtH power attack or something.

There's really no need for counterattacks, you should have more control over the combat, so you can counterattack yourself when you see an opening.

Climbing... is a really complicated thing.
People think, because Assassin's Creed had it, Skyrim should have it too. People also forget that the two games are a completely different genre, AC being a third person open world platformer, Skyrim being an open world first/third person RPG.
In those games, you could climb areas where you are shown you can climb, Skyrim tries to be more open, people would want to climb everything. That is pretty much impossible to do properly.

Already confirmed by Pete that Arkane has been working full time on their own project and they've not been involved with Skyrim at all.

I liked Daggerfall's feature but obviously it would be silly if we simply floated. The animations would have to be diverse depending on what angle you're climbing, what you are using to climb, and what you are climbing. Two picks would be neat climbing a mountain but it wouldn't be lawful to damage the side of someone's home.
Sneaky missions would be awesome if you could climb up buildings! Imagine a thieves guild quest to steal an amulet from the count's daughter. You would make your way up the side of the castle and then pick off guards with your bow. A few minutes after stealing the amulet the daughter realizes she's missing half of her belongings (I would take what I could) and then the guards are on heavy surveillance of the castle. Climbing down would be suicide, considering how you would be easily spotted by the searchlights so you decide to make your way down the tower...

I dunno, I think climbing would be an awesome feature.

OP:
I'll pass on your ideas since they're more like widnow dressing. Animations are eye-candy whereas I think story, plot, quest, and dialogue development are much more important. Complicated combat doesn't do it for me either; shoot, I was good with Morrowind's combat. Or Zork's for that matter

More for the brain, less for the fingers and eyes :nod:

People think the latest Bethesda game can do ANYTHING any other game in existence did... as if Bethesda was made up of game developing gods.

Calm down, I just think it's a good idea. I never demanded anything. If they don't have the time to do it then big whoop. Skyrim's gonna kick ass.

Climbing is not a new feature either, was present in Daggerfall, just like crossbows in Morrowind. A ledge-grab feature and environments that catered to it would be enough, but since 3rd-person is being catered to it is important that it looks good as well as feels good from first-person which is the real trick. The ledge-grab in Crysis 2 worked great but is certainly not 'easy' to implement.

Anyone else notice how Jack makes these threads, and then just disappears into the night, never to be heard from again (until his next thread)?

Yea he's gotten pretty good at it.

Believe it or not, it is a completely different thing.
In AC, only the main character can climb ledges, windows, etc. All the other NPCs can only climb ladders, and maybe crates/low walls (I don't remember if they can, but I am sure they cannot climb windows, knobs sticking out of a wall, ledges, etc). BUT, the NPCs only climb those when in pursuit of the main character, so the climbing is scritped (as the entire game really is, it is HIGHLY repetitive). In other words, once the pursuit starts, the script kicks in and the NPCs are basically told where the stairs are and how to climb them. And it is only those NPCs in pursuit of the main character who can climb up the ladder.

The problem that Bethesda has with ladders and such, is that the world in TES (and FO for that matter) is open. But the problem is not with the main character, it is with the NPCs. Whether an NPC climbs a ladder or not, it is up to the AI to figure out. It is not a matter of scripting "if this NPC is in pursuit, chasing this guy, do this". It is a matter of any regular NPC getting to a ladder, and knowing what to do with it, regardless of the situation.


.. or maybe Todd Howard is right, and they are scripting pussies