We all know the fine folks at BGS read these forums, but how may we influence an important patch? Destruction is not just vastly underpowerd, it absolutely pales in comparison to other offensive skills (see http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1283497-destruction-versus-one-handed-statistics/ for a statistical comparison to One Handed).

Here are just a few of the many shortcomings of Destruction magic:

-No power attacks.

-Dual casting increases damage output by 20%, while being 25% less economical--that is, casting a spell once in each hand will deal more damage for less magicka after just five attacks (with higher DPS, to boot, since two hands can attack faster separately than together).

-Only the Alchemy skill can augment Destruction's power, while the other direct combat skills (One Handed, Two Handed, Archery) can find benefit in all three crafting skills; Enchanting is a magic skill and still cannot increase magical damage output since there is no "X spell does more damage" enchantment, but there is an "X combat skill does more damage" enchantment.

-Though many of us, myself included, consider enchanting -100% spell cost breaking the game, it is still of little benefit--spellpower will not increase, so even free casting is generally (read: almost always) less powerful than other offensive skills.

-On the above note, other combat skills do not require stamina whatsoever (unlike Destruction, which requires magicka to cast). Only power attacks and zooming with the bow require stamina. This means that other combat skills are almost always free to use, and even in the case of stamina usage, power attacks only require ONE point of stamina to execute, while magic requires a minimum amount of magicka to cast.

-Melee and Archery damage numbers increase with the skill, but Destruction magic gains neither a damage increase or a cost reduction based on skill.

-Enchantments may require souls and potions may only be temporary, but weapons can have a permanently increased damage rating when improved at the smithy--Destruction spells cannot be improved outside of perks (which all other offensive skills have), not even with the magic crafting skill, Enchanting.

-Fireballs cannot be poisoned. A powerful Deadric sword with a paralysis and absorb health enchantment, however, can have weakness to fire poison applied to it for good measure so that the fire and shock enchanted war axe in the other hand is supported as well--not to mention the paralysis poison on THAT weapon, as well as the chance to paralyze with a backward power attack. Destruction, on the other hand, can only paralyze with frost spells, and only when the opponent is too close to death for it to make a difference, anyway.

We've complained and compared enough, but how do we know when (or if) Bethesda will hear us, and what they will do? It's been said (I believe in Oblivion) that mages wield a might sharper than any blade, but that's about as far from the truth as it gets: Destruction is, demonstrably, the weakest of the offensive skills. Ideally, I would say that the school needs every spell at least doubled in base power (some tripled, like Flames, Frostbite and Sparks), as well as the novice through master perks granting an extra 5% power each, with spell cost being 20% higher at its base and going down with skill.

Thoughts? I hope Bethesda hears us: your mages want more power! :mage:

I totally agree with op

1) Combine magic = Power attack + stagger effect
2) The increased magicka consumption is because of the stagger effect if you got impact, it is the most OP perk to get, so of course it should cost more magicka~
3) Just make some potions if you want more damage, or upgrade your spells~ If you want 1hko's all the time, change ur difficulty~
4) A little benefit? If you do go that route and choose to nullify your magicka cost, it only makes you that much more powerful, especially when spam casting higher lvl spells + impact, nothing stands a chance!
5) Once again, Impact. *Stagger lock*
6) Newer spells with more damage, perks reduce the cost, enchanting reduces the cost~
7) It doesn't need to be... When you get to lv100 Destruction you have some insane spells at your disposal, i play on Master as a pure mage and nothing can stop me *if you play carefully that is~* plus, once again, Impact perk~
8) This one i agree with, it svcks that they removed those spells but kept them as poisons... Rather silly imo.

All in all, even though they removed some spells that were useful which i do not understand... The magic system this time around is much better and much more fun then in Oblivion and Morrowind~ It feels like magic this time around... Now if only they kept spell creation and some of the other spells~

I sincerely hope that this (the issue, not just the thread) gets attention soon.

I'm sorry, but I'm totally boggled by your post.

Bar none, my mage is the biggest beast of all my characters and I've encountered the least sticking points in Master difficulty. Early mana pool is a serious problem, but that can be combated with potions.

The big standout for me with mages is that you can hit an entire room of enemies in one shot (frost cloud, fireball) as opposed to a melee fighter who has to hit one at a time --even the two handed side swipe perk is barely worth using.

The 100% stagger chance on dual casting is RIDICULOUS. Dragons are an absolute laugh as you can interrupt any breath attack and when they hit the ground you just stun lock them to death and they can't do a bloody thing about it.

Granted, I've only played destruction up to 80 skill, but I in no way ever missed having a +% damage enchant or felt in ANY way that mages are not strong enough.

These observations are all in master mode.

I really think Bethesda is already completely aware of the issue, after some many people talking about it. Some people will bash this thread soon enough, but that's no problem since the devs are aware of our suggestions.
Now the thing is just wait for patches.

I'm not yet at the levels where this becomes a problem. I don't use destruction, and I don't play as a mage. I play a fighter. To survive I have to rely on a bunch of skills. Not only sword or bow or shield. But all of them combined with armor and maybe smithing and alchemy. And the ability to run away if it gets too hairy.

But what bothers me about all these complaints is this: Why do mages rely solely on Destruction to do their work and keep them alive? You must have a [censored]load of other perks other than Destruction above level 30. My point is that trying to make a "pure anything" will fail.

1) Unlike with melee weapons, Destruction magic needs two(!) perks in order to stagger, and the stagger effect is not even very significant: you'll need Dual Casting and Impact. Magic already costs magicka, do we need to spend an extra 25% of it every time we want to stagger? This is especially bothersome (and ineffective) when you consider that perks can drastically reduce the cost of power attacks, which always stagger (as opposed to most of the time with Impact). Bashes and power bashes also always stagger.

2) It's rather subjective to say that Impact is the most overpowered perk one can get (I believe the consensus is Shadow Warrior), and I've already demonstrated that you can get more power for less magicka simply by casting five times, as well as getting higher DPS since you can cast one hand after the other faster than you can cast using both hands at once.

3) That's a very, very poor point. Firstly, I'm not looking merely for OHKO's, and secondly, lowering the difficulty so that Destruction does as much relative damage as other offensive skills is not a fix--Destruction is still vastly outclassed.

4) Reducing magicka costs, as I've said, does nothing to increase your power output. Giving you infinite arrows does not change how strong your attacks are, it simply enables you to attack more (and carelessly). And regardless of that, many players consider -100% magicka cost gamebreaking, and nobody appreciates being told how to play our game (and yes, telling us to "go that route" and lower the difficulty is telling people how to play Skyrim).

5) There is a limited magic pool. One can only stagger lock for so long, and to what end? To sit and wait for your magicka to regen? It costs more to stagger lock than do the damage, anyway.

6) I don't know what your sixth point is about. There are new spells, yes, but they are weak. Too weak.

7) Yes, Destruction does need to be improved. Again, it is, demonstrably, the weakest offensive skill (and the others are balanced with one another!). This is not up for debate.

Mages rely on Destruction for their offense for much the same reason that warriors use One or Two Handed and stealth characters use Archery. It is not absolutely necessary, to be sure, but Destruction is the only magic school that deals direct damage to the enemy; the other offensive skills are all under the Warrior's charge.

Also, do not tell people how to play. I'll play a "pure" mage if i want to.

Edit: In short, some people don't like their mages using swords or axes.

I'm not saying mages aren't viable, I'm saying Destruction magic is totally underpowered; your mage character would be dealing a lot more damage a lot more effectively with virtually any craftable weapon type.

Simple answer, make the damage scale with the skill power.

I am totally baffled this wasn't done to begin with, as it makes so much sense. Maybe too much sense to the developers? *sigh*

100 skill archery should not do more damage than a 100 skill destruction.

Going to be out for a while, but it's nice to see discussion on both ends of the issue :foodndrink:

I'll see your responses in a day or so. Keep up the good work, fine folks.

That's one of my points; I don't know why damage doesn't scale with skill. It should, since enemies (and all other kinds of damage, even the strength of poisons you make) scale.

1) I stopped reading after you said 'the stagger effect is not even very significant'... What?
2) Stagger-2 spells-stagger-2 spells, if you are playing on expert-master, impact is highly needed~
3) The way you are talking about it, it sounds as if you want your spells to 1-2shot anything, even on Master... It's Master for a reason...
4) It does increase your power output.... Because you can spam spells without worrying about mana.............................. I for one do not do that, but i never have a problem with my mana, you just need to choose your spells wisely for the situation your in~
5) I do not use stagger with higher lvl spells, i only stagger with the lower lvl ones~ Once again, choose wisely~
6) They are weak?.... :confused: I purposely use the lower lvl ones like fireball/ice spike because the other spells kill things quite quickly... And i play on Master.........
7) Then you are using it the wrong way.

I used to complain that Destruction was underpowered aswell, that it was all of these things, but after spending a bit more time with it, it really isnt... It's all about what spells you use, what situations you are in, when to use your more powerful spell and when to use a weaker one, how to conserve your mana, yaddayaddayadda~

P.S: Certain enemys have certain strengths and weaknesses to certain types of magic... For example using a fire spell on a Dunmer wont get you anywhere...

Also, do you play on Master?

Yay! yet another "destruction svcks!" thread. Add it to the pile,

I'd agree that the Adept and Expert destruction Spells should be a bit more powerful but I think that it should be a bit more strategic with it... just being a long ranged fighter I think overlaps with archery a bit too much. I'd rather have the AoE spells just increased on the AoE area and have stronger versions of the novice spells at the Adept level.

I haven't really used dual cast spells yet, so I can't really comment on them... I guess that alone is enough of a statement tho. I don't think spells should be a "knockback", I think dual casting should be about more powerful spells and the fact that ice spells are suppose to drain speed and stamina just leaves the knockback taking away from ice spells a little.

Then again, I can't imagine that Bethesda designed Skyrim to just use one skill tree either, and so if mixed in with another skill tree like Conjuration or Illusion... you get something in the way to do a bit of damage and cause havoc in the middle. After all Melees are using at least two skill trees, the 1 or 2 handed weapon and light or heavy armor at minimum... an archer is likely using sneak on top of archery to get more powerful attacks out too or an assassin using 1-handed weapon, sneak and alchemy. Maybe a part of the problem is people being too focused on a skill tree and not mixing spells up a bit more.



Shield Bashes, Weapon Bashes and Power Attacks DO require Stamina; If you don't have enough stamina then the stamina bar will flash and you'll be unable to perform the action. Admittedly power attacks can be preformed with lower stamina then the attack actually uses but that does nuke the stamina bar for a good amount of time. Given that against an equal level enemy with a shield that normal attacks can be like trying to attack a titanium tank with a tin opener, those help greatly get past the titanium, also that the Bashes stagger is good but the stamina cost of these actions is high...

Oh boy here we go again. You talk about Destruction being underpowered as though it is the only magic skill to ever use in combat. A mage using only Destruction is like a warrior with no armor. You need to use some other skill to support your magic, whether its an armor skill, crafting skill or a different school of magic. After playing the game with 4 different character types I can honestly say that Destruction has been the most powerful thing in the game for me.

I'm calling this: First DLC -> NEW SPELLS ARE BROKEN AND OVERPOWERED, WHY NO BALANCE BETHESDA?!

No please Bethesda listen to these fine people that say that destruction is underpowered...give them what they wish.....and when the destruction is changed you can listen to them whine and complain that "....golly I threw a firball that caused 5000 points damage and all my enemies died in a flash....the game is no fun".

Go back and play Rage already.....

Disagree with you OP. I rule on my level 48 Dest Mage on Adept difficulty. If you know what your doing any spec is viable.

To OP and anyone else who keeps claiming this viewpoint...

... Destruction is not underpowered at all. Learn how it works and how to play a pure mage character, as others have pointed out. As I have often pointed out, stuff like max damage comparisons are unimportant as far as whether or not the abilities are balanced. What matters is the overall context and end result. In my case, dead enemies.

This type of thread is similar to people complaining about magic in Oblivion and Morrowind. For example, many people complained that they didn't have a big enough magicka pool no matter what, but didn't understand that that was not how you play a pure mage in those games.

Once again someone completely missing the point of the complaint. "Pure" destruction mages don't just rely on destruction - they also use illusion to hide or alteration/restoration as protection. These however do no damage. Conjuration is the only other option for damage within the magic schools, but it is a fundamentally different way of dealing damage, and has a totally different feel. If you don't want to be a pet class or a melee mage, you're screwed after a certain point because of how destruction has been constructed. Your argument seems to suggest that destruction mages are failing because they only level one skill which is not the case at all. They are failing because at a certain point their damage dealing skill becomes nearly useless.


As a fighter you pretty much have to choose to either use one or two handed weapons. There is no point choosing both, because they both do the same thing but in slightly different ways and you'd just be wasting perks that could be more useful elsewhere. You choose whichever one you feel suits your character best. This is like destruction/conjuration - one is direct damage the other indirect/melee. However, with magic users they are forced to use conjuration after a certain point if they started using destruction to begin with. It is like forcing a two-hander to switch to one-handed weapons after level 40 because they suddenly became incapable of hurting anything.

The important thing is not effectiveness, but how a character feels. It's not about conjuration being better than destruction, but about destruction being useless after a point. It's not about mages not using enough of their skills, but about mages being forced to use ones they don't want to.


NO. It is like a warrior using a certain weapon type up to level 40, and then having to train in another style because their first choice became useless. Destruction mages are using other skills, but eventually what were their support skills have to become their primaries because the first choice of damage became rubbish. I get the impression you're probably around level 25 when destruction feels amazing. You have a nasty surprise in store...



Really? Do you actually think it's unreasonable for mages to want to play as, well, a mage? This isn't just whining, it's a legitimate problem as one of the favourite TES skills is now extremely broken. The request isn't to make destruction uber powerful, but to make it scale properly. It works fine for 40 levels and then just stops while everything else gets stronger. Here's a little empathy experiment for you: imagine your favourite way of hurting people in Skyrim stops getting better after a point and you have to switch to something else. Would that annoy you? Of course it would. What would you do about it? Oh, I'm sure you'd never complain on the forums, you'd just svck it up and make the switch because it would be totally silly to try and get the developers to patch the game so that it actually works, now wouldn't it? <_<


The problem is NOT with destruction being underpowered but with the fact that destructions usage changes radically. It goes from overpowered to underpowered, and it is that inconsistency that is the problem. It may well not become useless in higher levels, but for a character built on using destruction having to switch from a DPS role in combat to supporting your companions and summons changes the way the game feels entirely, a massive change of character that is forced onto the player. I know I'm repeating myself here, but people don't seem to understand where this complaint is coming from. It is, quite literally, like forcing a melee character into becoming an archer and supporting their follower in combat. It's not a fun transition, and it's very frustrating. Please stop telling people they are using destruction wrong when it works perfectly fine up to a certain point. In a game about character choice, a skill that fails to deliver from the start (eg speech) is vastly more preferable to one that is immensely fun for a while and then requires a restart.

As I've asked in other threads: if Bethesda scaled destruction to where it did the damage you were asking for, where would that leave mages who took advantage of both the conjuration and destruction trees?

They'd be fine - they can summon atronachs and then use spells damage types the atronach is immune to to take down enemies. It would make them stronger, possibly more so than those focused purely on destruction. It would just make conjuration more of a choice and less of a necessity.

Not that I disagree or anything, but I feel that one 300-page thread would get more attention than 100 3-page threads.


They usually go:
1)Original Post
2)Agree/Disagree
3)Flame war
4)Threads closed after a few pages