Bethesda's mistake with steam : V - Skyrim

» Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:14 pm

I should have done more due diligence before purchasing Skyrim, but I realize I didn't and I'm prepared for this.
I don't know if this has been covered here or it is the proper place, but I don't really care at this point and if this post is deleted, well I at least got my point across to some admin here.

I think Bethesda made a huge mistake requiring steam to play Skyrim and I want them to know about it. Forcing a buyer to install third party software that requires (even if it is only periodic) an internet connection to play an offline, single player game is ridiculous in my opinion.

Yes, you can set it to offline mode, but after a couple of weeks you are still required to connect to steam so they can upload updates, track your usage, shut you down for no apparent reason, etc. You are at their mercy. If you upset steam (even through not fault of your own....read: someone hacks your account), you could even permanently loose the ability to play the game you just dished $60 out for.

Now most people are probably going to say they haven't had problems and can deal with this.

On the other hand, There are those of us that feel like this is just another method of control forced upon us. There are many reasons, aside from the control factor (lack of reliable internet, no internet, etc.), that I find this very distasteful, but the simple matter was that I was looking for a game I could play (forever if I wanted to) without having an internet connection.

At a high level, I don't see where this is conceptually different from having the government requiring you to have an On-Star like service in every new car so they can completely shut down the vehicle if they ever feel like it for whatever misguided reason.

Sorry if I am ranting here, but I need to let off some steam (pun intended), but at least I found this out before I opened the game. I'll be setting up a return as soon as it arrives...voting with my wallet to let Bethesda know they made a big mistake (and hoping there are enough others out there to make a big impact on their bottom line).

I see your point poster, it makes me a little uneasy too. It kind of takes too much of a centralised control of your bought and paid for individual copy, an almost fascist control one might say, in a convenient way? But I am with you on this, took me ages to even find my own files. But I guess it is reflective of what we are accepting in the world in general. I'm sure the old way of sticking in a disk wasn't that bad. Whatever their reasons, steam must be kept in check imho.

» Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:57 pm

I love Steam.

It always surprised me that people judge Steam by the faults which have largely been eliminated years ago. There's just a bit of a stigma on it.

I remember when Steam first came out for Half-Life 2, back in the day. It was really rough. Nowadays, with occasional problems asside, Steam works just perfect. Skyrim;s release was actually one of the best of the big titles I;ve seen so far.

Long pre-load, Timely release. Steam servers held up, I was playing as soon as it was released.

» Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:04 am

People complain about speed limit laws too. People complain about the TSA feeling people up at the airports. People complain about drug laws and drunk driving laws and everything else.

Your rant is really no different. Steam serves a legitimate purpose. Yes, its often inconvienent, but we live in a world of thieves and crooks and companies have to take what steps they can to protect their products. Will Steam stop all piracy? Nope. Just as speed limits don't stop some people from speeding. However, for the VAST bulk of users it works very well. Online DRM is going to be even MORE restrictive in the future, so I wouldn't get to upset with something as basic as Steam. There are far more invasive DRM schemes out there and many future games may start implementing them as well.

» Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:46 am

The poll at the top of the page refutes that statement if the forum members who took part are indicative of sales...

Not really, most of the people posting here are PC users and PC gamers. Most of my console owning friends don't even know this forum exists. And I'd bet good money those type of people constitute the BULK of the people who will buy Skyrim. And I'm not saying that because I want to make you angry or bash PC's. I LOVE my PC... and it makes me incredibly sad that it is no longer the dominant platform. I can only imagine what games COULD be like if they were developed FIRST for today's PCs. The budgets that the bigger development houses can throw at triple A titles would result in games that would be mind-blowing.

So, yeah, it makes me incredibly sad, but I cannot deny that consoles ARE the dominant platform.

And the thing that makes me more sad than any other is that modding is DYING. There was a time (back when PCs were still dominant) when almost every game that came out came with some type of editor. Now, it is a rarity... And because of that modding is dying. Hell, most people back then got into the game industry from the modding community. Now they come mostly out of the gaming-related colleges.

» Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:52 pm

... Well this is inconvenient...

Steam doesn't have fast enough internet to do anything on the website. It won't sign in from the desktop shortcut either. .

» Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:19 am

I'll be setting up a return as soon as it arrives...voting with my wallet to let Bethesda know they made a big mistake (and hoping there are enough others out there to make a big impact on their bottom line).

Their bottom line will not be hurt at all. There are too many people (myself included) that have embraced Steam and digital distribution in general as the future of PC gaming and have learned to love it. My advice: since you will not be hurting Bethesda at all just deal with Steam and enjoy the game. For every one person that comes on here saying Steam is horrible and they are returning the game, ten more have bought it and love it.

» Fri Dec 02, 2011 6:05 am

... Well this is inconvenient...

Steam doesn't have fast enough internet to do anything on the website. It won't sign in from the desktop shortcut either. .

Steam does not have slow internet. Steam does not have any internet.

» Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:00 pm

People complain about speed limit laws too. People complain about the TSA feeling people up at the airports. People complain about drug laws and drunk driving laws and everything else.

Your rant is really no different. Steam serves a legitimate purpose. Yes, its often inconvienent, but we live in a world of thieves and crooks and companies have to take what steps they can to protect their products. Will Steam stop all piracy? Nope. Just as speed limits don't stop some people from speeding. However, for the VAST bulk of users it works very well. Online DRM is going to be even MORE restrictive in the future, so I wouldn't get to upset with something as basic as Steam. There are far more invasive DRM schemes out there and many future games may start implementing them as well.

Yes, and we also live in a world where the vast majority of people are decent and don't deserve to be treated like crooks, especially when it is usually the case that the biggest crooks invent the controls in the first place. You said it yourself when you mentioned the TSA!

History will always try and repeat itself you know?

» Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:59 am

It won't affect nodding at all,really. New Vegas requires Steam and mods work just fine with it.

Well then, I guess... I for one welcome the new Overlords. :biggrin: he he

» Fri Dec 02, 2011 6:20 am

To be honest, I welcome Steam. This means we won't have to deal with Securom or whatever for DLC as we had with Oblivion. Considering that, the (very loose) online requirement is a nice trade-off.

Yep, count me on the side favoring steam. I hate having to run with CD/DVD in the drives, and DRM that messes up the computer.

» Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:17 pm

Steam does not have slow internet. Steam does not have any internet.

... My Meaning is perfectly clear. But as you are obviously incapable of reading between the lines, let me spell it out for you.

The internet speed at which The Steam program is running is not fast enough for steam to allow me to do anything on the website, and likewise it won't sign in from the desktop shortcut either.

Do you understand now? And will you reply with something which isn't off topic?

» Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:03 am

Buy all my games on steam so no problems for me. Dont need physical copies anymore.

» Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:39 am

Welcome to the digital distribution age.. I hated Steam forever and railed against it for the longest time, vowing NEVER to install it, use it, endorse it, support it. I will shamelessly admit I laughed when Valve was hacked and the HalfLife 2 code was stolen.

Then I bought Civ V, not knowing that it also required Steam. Well, I was steamed (har har) and I almost took it back. But there was no other option and I really wanted to play it. And by that time, Steam had developed into a mature platform with an active ocmmunity. My son urged me to give it a try, he had long been a member of that community.

So I did. And I've been a regular Steam user ever since. I don't have a lot of Steam games, maybe 25 or so. But it is so much more convenient to be able to pick up any game I want at any time of day or night, I've bought things experimentally that I never would have tried otherwises and was introduced to some great new games. With a 30Mbs connect, I can svck down any huge app quickly and be playing right away. It's transformational. Very much like how I went kicking and screaming into the modern musical world, giving up on my anolog record collection to reluctantly adopt CDs, and then giving up on CDs to reluctantly adopt iTunes. And omg, I wouldh't have it any other way now. I have a huge collection of eBooks and my favorite magazines now on my iPad and I can't remember the last time I bought paper.

Times change and the future is inevitable. Steam is only one small and flawed part of this revolution, but the revolution is coming whether any of us like it or not and it will only get better. But I suspect that most of us will like it in the end. Like life, convenience always finds a way.

» Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:38 am

Buy all my games on steam so no problems for me. Dont need physical copies anymore.

Well that's great then, we have no other reason to wonder where or why this powerful middle man (person) has appeared from and for what purpose other than to make you need no DVD? :rolleyes:

Regardless, it's healthy to question why this dominant company has so much control all of a sudden.

» Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:57 pm

You could simple validate the game and then just launch it via Skyrim.exe
I'm using this method to play with border less window.

» Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:12 pm

Welcome to the digital distribution age.. I hated Steam forever and railed against it for the longest time, vowing NEVER to install it, use it, endorse it, support it. I will shamelessly admit I laughed when Valve was hacked and the HalfLife 2 code was stolen.

Then I bought Civ V, not knowing that it also required Steam. Well, I was steamed (har har) and I almost took it back. But there was no other option and I really wanted to play it. And by that time, Steam had developed into a mature platform with an active ocmmunity. My son urged me to give it a try, he had long been a member of that community.

So I did. And I've been a regular Steam user ever since. I don't have a lot of Steam games, maybe 25 or so. But it is so much more convenient to be able to pick up any game I want at any time of day or night, I've bought things experimentally that I never would have tried otherwises and was introduced to some great new games. With a 30Mbs connect, I can svck down any huge app quickly and be playing right away. It's transformational. Very much like how I went kicking and screaming into the modern musical world, giving up on my anolog record collection to reluctantly adopt CDs, and then giving up on CDs to reluctantly adopt iTunes. And omg, I wouldh't have it any other way now. I have a huge collection of eBooks and my favorite magazines now on my iPad and I can't remember the last time I bought paper.

Times change and the future is inevitable. Steam is only one small and flawed part of this revolution, but the revolution is coming whether any of us like it or not and it will only get better. But I suspect that most of us will like it in the end. Like life, convenience always finds a way.

Yes, but technology can be used in many different ways, especially where convenience is concerned.

» Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:27 pm

Steam has always caused issues with everything I have used on it. Took me an hour to install Skyrim due to Steam not working properly. Similar issues with Civ 5, X2 and a bunch of other games. When it works OK its usually straightforward enough. When it malfunctions it just royally screws everything up.

» Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:43 pm

I should have done more due diligence before purchasing Skyrim, but I realize I didn't and I'm prepared for this.
I don't know if this has been covered here or it is the proper place, but I don't really care at this point and if this post is deleted, well I at least got my point across to some admin here.

I think Bethesda made a huge mistake requiring steam to play Skyrim and I want them to know about it. Forcing a buyer to install third party software that requires (even if it is only periodic) an internet connection to play an offline, single player game is ridiculous in my opinion.

Yes, you can set it to offline mode, but after a couple of weeks you are still required to connect to steam so they can upload updates, track your usage, shut you down for no apparent reason, etc. You are at their mercy. If you upset steam (even through not fault of your own....read: someone hacks your account), you could even permanently loose the ability to play the game you just dished $60 out for.

Now most people are probably going to say they haven't had problems and can deal with this.

On the other hand, There are those of us that feel like this is just another method of control forced upon us. There are many reasons, aside from the control factor (lack of reliable internet, no internet, etc.), that I find this very distasteful, but the simple matter was that I was looking for a game I could play (forever if I wanted to) without having an internet connection.

At a high level, I don't see where this is conceptually different from having the government requiring you to have an On-Star like service in every new car so they can completely shut down the vehicle if they ever feel like it for whatever misguided reason.

Sorry if I am ranting here, but I need to let off some steam (pun intended), but at least I found this out before I opened the game. I'll be setting up a return as soon as it arrives...voting with my wallet to let Bethesda know they made a big mistake (and hoping there are enough others out there to make a big impact on their bottom line).

1-) Steam provides me an online platform which is needed (PS3 has PSN, Xbox has Xbox Live)

2-) Steam provides me amazong discounts.

3-) Steam provides me best free screenshot tool.

4-) Steam lets me backup my games to other sources.

5-) Steam let's me chat with my friends without having extra effort.

6-) Steam gives me in-game browser.

6-) Steam gives me free games.

6-) Steam is not 3rd Party Software, it does not gather data unless you consent them in hardware surveys.

7-) Steamguard is best security among all gaming platforms

8-) Steam is best way to prevent piracy(discounts again)

9-) No need for DRM with Steam, and Steam itself isn't a DRM to begin with.

9 reasons for 9 Gods of Elder Scrolls

Steamworks is a must do if you want to guarantee sales success on PC.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll go back to my game.

» Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:24 pm

9-) No need for DRM with Steam, and Steam itself isn't a DRM to begin with.

Steam is a digital distribution, digital rights management, multiplayer and communications platform developed by Valve Corporation.

Steam provides minimal digital rights management (DRM) for software titles, by providing "Custom Executable Generation" for executable files that are unique for each user, but allow that user to install the software on multiple computing devices via Steam or through software backups without limitations.Steam's DRM is available through Steamworks to software developers, but the service allows developers and publishers to include other forms of DRM on top of Steam.

Correction for you.

» Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:02 am

I should have done more due diligence before purchasing Skyrim, but I realize I didn't and I'm prepared for this.
I don't know if this has been covered here or it is the proper place, but I don't really care at this point and if this post is deleted, well I at least got my point across to some admin here.

I think Bethesda made a huge mistake requiring steam to play Skyrim and I want them to know about it. Forcing a buyer to install third party software that requires (even if it is only periodic) an internet connection to play an offline, single player game is ridiculous in my opinion.

Yes, you can set it to offline mode, but after a couple of weeks you are still required to connect to steam so they can upload updates, track your usage, shut you down for no apparent reason, etc. You are at their mercy. If you upset steam (even through not fault of your own....read: someone hacks your account), you could even permanently loose the ability to play the game you just dished $60 out for.

Now most people are probably going to say they haven't had problems and can deal with this.

On the other hand, There are those of us that feel like this is just another method of control forced upon us. There are many reasons, aside from the control factor (lack of reliable internet, no internet, etc.), that I find this very distasteful, but the simple matter was that I was looking for a game I could play (forever if I wanted to) without having an internet connection.

At a high level, I don't see where this is conceptually different from having the government requiring you to have an On-Star like service in every new car so they can completely shut down the vehicle if they ever feel like it for whatever misguided reason.

Sorry if I am ranting here, but I need to let off some steam (pun intended), but at least I found this out before I opened the game. I'll be setting up a return as soon as it arrives...voting with my wallet to let Bethesda know they made a big mistake (and hoping there are enough others out there to make a big impact on their bottom line).

ironically steam just notified me that they HAVE been hacked and may have lost personal information INCLUDING credit card #s... Besides not having internet access at home it is things like this that also are an issue... No one seems to care about the fact that mommies and daddies credit card info may now be in the hands of some hacker out there..... It pisses me off listening to some of these trolls who "steam is great, all that, no problem, love it..." ..... and so on... And here is the ironic part to this god forsaken DRM system.... It has NO IMPACT what so ever on piracy... But it DOES impact those like me who do not have access to the internet thus are now not buying new games at the rate we used to... For the most part I now only buy games that do NOT use this crap system... I gave in for Skyrim and now wish I had not because the issues with bugs and of course the interface that svcks..

» Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:12 pm

Maybe next time do 5 minutes of research on something before you buy it? Needing Steam was mentioned just about EVERYWHERE, besides Steam rocks stop being such a crybaby about it.

» Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:45 am

1-) Steam provides me an online platform which is needed (PS3 has PSN, Xbox has Xbox Live)

2-) Steam provides me amazong discounts.

3-) Steam provides me best free screenshot tool.

4-) Steam lets me backup my games to other sources.

5-) Steam let's me chat with my friends without having extra effort.

6-) Steam gives me in-game browser.

6-) Steam gives me free games.

6-) Steam is not 3rd Party Software, it does not gather data unless you consent them in hardware surveys.

7-) Steamguard is best security among all gaming platforms

8-) Steam is best way to prevent piracy(discounts again)

9-) No need for DRM with Steam, and Steam itself isn't a DRM to begin with.

9 reasons for 9 Gods of Elder Scrolls

Steamworks is a must do if you want to guarantee sales success on PC.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll go back to my game.

You have got to be kidding... What a crock... especially the "guarantee sales success" on PC.. Can't stop laughing on that one. All these DRM systems have done is limit those of us who have been customers since the Commodore 64 days who do not have internet access against being able to purchase or play new titles... I used to buy around 100 titles a year easily. This past year and a half I have bought ONE. Yes ONE. Why? Because I cannot get internet access in my home yet. I am rural. And yes I could pay $85 a month for Hughs Net Sat where they then turn me off when I use up my 2 gig per month allotment. No freaking way.

Maybe SOMEDAY when everyone can have internet in their home it will be less of an issue but that is a LONG way away.

Plus what happens when Steam fails or no longer figures as a title as viable on their servers??? I still play games from the 80's and 90's because they are that good. I would no longer be able to were they tied to Steam or other systems. Every game I have from the late 90's through 2010 that required internet I can no longer play.. why? Because the companies are gone or the servers were turned off etc.... Makes me angry because I spent good money for something that is now in effect useless for anything but a conversation piece.

All Steam and other DRM system do is hurt the bottom line and those customers like me who have SUPPORTED these companies from day one.

» Fri Dec 02, 2011 6:23 am

I didn't even know Skyrim was a Steamworks title, and I preordered it there specifically because I wanted to have it on Steam. It's the only way I'll buy games now. The idea of buying a physical copy of a game now feels to me like buying a physical music CD - inconvenient and unnecessary. I, for one, won't shed a tear when physical media is a relic of the past. In fact, I'll be surprised if the next generation of consoles don't start embracing digital distribution more fully.

» Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:49 pm

Well that's great then, we have no other reason to wonder where or why this powerful middle man (person) has appeared from and for what purpose other than to make you need no DVD? :rolleyes:

Regardless, it's healthy to question why this dominant company has so much control all of a sudden.

If you followed the industry, you would realize that they have been around a long time, and hit it big with Half-life. Then for some reason, they came up with Steam, and it was forced on you if you wanted half-life 2. I boycotted that game for years, but eventually gave in. Now I like the service quite a bit. You still have the freedom to not buy the games if you so choose.

I don't think they have "so much control". More like that they provide a developer friendly service, and claim to limit piracy. I don't know how well it works with regards to piracy. There are other benefits as well such as patch distribution and updating. It's not like they go to developers and threaten to ruin them if they do not use their service. It's digital distribution, and it's here to stay.

Companies are convinced that they are losing big bucks due to piracy, and DRM isn't going away.

» Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:03 pm

Blegh I just svcked it up.

Compare it to EA's origin and you'll be extremely happy with it as Steam doesn't steal your personal information from your PC... yet...

You think it isn't lol It already scans your system to see what programs you have installed you think its not telling them exactly whats installed on your computer? Even surfing the web, yahoo, google and other search engines already secretly gather information about you. what makes you think steam isn't?