I hesitate to call Ashur a villain. He was dancing in the neutral grey area. He was doing what he thought was right for the betterment of his people even though he had to make some negative choices to get there. The slaves were no better, if not evil. I refuse to steal a child from its parents

Fine, an antagonist then which is the point of this thread. He was an actually decent, layered antagonist which Bethesda has not since repeated in F3.

Well the last villain they did was whatshisface, Miraak or something.

And he was kind of like meh.

The impression I got from him was that Beth looked at Ulysses and said "let's do that".

I concur. As much as I detest slavery, abducting a child from his/her parents is almost equally as cruel, if not crueler. Ashur seemed...very grey to my mind. Not a noble knight, nor was he a mustache-twirling villain like Eden/Augustus or Miraak.

>Autumn

>Mustache twirling

>Was willing to blow up Eden if he thought Eden was going to try the FEV plan because he found the entire idea idiotic, and argued against it in favor of keeping the mutated humans alive.

Autumn was probably THE only person in the Enclave, in either Fo2 or 3, that was NOT a mustache twirling idiot.

Nah he was. Like giving your Dad like a couple of minutes before gunning down civilians. Not going to have some engineers come and look at the thing first Autumn? Or check that you've secured the facility first?

Cos if it isn't on now, and there's no reason not to be if it's not on already, then they've hardly got it working in the last few seconds before you showed up.

Double post

He was a dike, I don't disagree, but he wasn't doing it just for the LULZ! like a true mustache twirling villain does.

He honestly wanted to help the people living in post-war America, he was just willing to kill people who stood in his way. That's more renegade Shepard then Skeletor.

Well nobody in the Enclave was doing it for the lols, they were deluded.

I think it goes beyond mere dikeery. He literally walks in and kills someone just to prove a point, you can't get more "cliche evil" than that IMO.

I don't think that there's enough evidence to support that. He might very well just wanted to have enslave them or remove Eden from leadership as the thoroughly toxic entity that he was for brainwashing an entire generation of people.

A good, well written antagonist doesn't need to have a lot of screen time. Outside of Frank Horrigan in Fallout 2, and most of the antagonists in Fallout 3, the series has had some pretty good "villains" - especially by RPG standards where two dimensional characters like Jon Irenicus, Darth Malak, and Saren are for whatever reason held in high regard. Quality is far more important than quantity, and most of the Fallout games have a done a good job at presenting antagonists who are an actual threat, and have compelling motivations for their actions despite their brief screen time.

Unlike Lyons supposedly helping people for the sake it being suggested to be a PR stunt by some in Broken Steel, absolutely nothing suggests Autumn was in any way dishonest about his motives. If Bethesda wanted to make us believe he was being dishonest, they would have.

He's the kind of guy who would casually execute people to motivate others even when he was no idea of the actual situation. His plan involved destroying the Enclave main facility which clear had the capacity to keep several hundred people alive in complete isolation for decades - I'd hardly say that that's a rational plan. Christ when you speech him at the end he comes off like a jabbering moron.

At best he wanted to establish an Enclave ran martial government over the mainlanders, frankly - not a bad option IMO - but he was by no means an even mildly benevolent face on anything. His reasons for no FEV appear more practical than moral or part of some greater power play for himself against Eden. The Enclave's disposition towards mainlanders has been almost universally cruel and unsympathetic, he's hardly breaking the mold.

Hey, Miraak was awesome! He's basically an extreme example of what happens when a player character ignores the main quest; it's no coincidence he was a Dragonborn during the reign of Alduin and the Dragon Cult. If he had just done his damn job in the first place, the ancient Nords wouldn't have had to send Alduin in the future for us to clean up! I really love the implications of a Chosen One figure who screws everyone over by ignoring his destiny. I mean okay, there isn't much competition, but he's probably the best villain Skyrim has. I definitely didn't get a "Ulysses" vibe from him, and thank gods they didn't try to awkwardly give us a backstory like Lonesome Road did. I loved Ulysses and that DLC, but the backstory just felt so contrived while I was going through it.

What I really love about all of the Fallout games is that you have the ability to talk down the antagonist at the end, instead of having to fight them. That alone really brought some of the antagonists down to Earth.

No, it didn't actually. He even says in the note in question that its a last resort.

http://fallout.gamepedia.com/ZAX_destruct_sequence

"I'm not entirely sure Eden can be trusted. And I think he knows I don't trust him. But I don't think he knows I have the emergency destruct sequence for his console."Priority Override, Authorization code 420-03-20-9" and... boom. It'd have to be a last resort, of course, but at least the option is there."

I never said he was, you don't have to be nice to not be mustache twirling though.

It shouldn't even be an option, it's simply a terrible idea to even have - let alone seek to implement.

Last resort against what exactly? What exactly justifies the destruction of Raven Rock? Oh yeah, Autumn not getting his way. Not rational nor justified IMO.

Well I don't think his actions paint him as any less a crap villain as the others.

Besides a genocidal computer possibly committing genocide on the people he was trying to save?

Don't forget, they also had Adams, which arguably had more tech in it then Raven Rock did.

And you think Autumn was a good enough soul to betray his own country and people for the mainlanders? I don't think so. He wanted them to survive under Enclave leadership and control right? If that's the case then sacrificing the Rock to achieve that is not a good plan. Autumn wasn't out to martyr the entire Enclave for the sake of them which is effectively what blowing up the Rock would do, especially if it couldn't be evacuated in-time after he sent Eden on his way out. It was a last resort plan if he couldn't get his goal some other way, an entirely selfish goal that would put his own community at risk.

I don't think so, the Rock was a Continuity of Government facility designed for long-term occupation and clearly served that role quite while by allowing a large Enclave population within it to survive on it's resources. I don't see that same level of tech existing at Adams, which was just an AFB.

Except he wasn't doing either. As evidenced in Fallout 3, every human in the Enclave followed HIS order over Eden's without question. All he would have to do is tell everyone to GTFO and then blow it, and move everyone to Adams.

He isn't betraying his own country by blowing up something trying to KILL said country.

The mobile base crawler alone was another Raven Rock, it even had everything RR did, minus the crazed computer overlord.

Not to mention theres more room for expansion at Adams then RR.

Is this ever mentioned in the game? Because we don't really see the day-to-day benefits of living in one vs the other. All we know is that they both have general livng quarters as well as facilities capable of producing weapons/armor technology among other things. Raven Rock was most likely considerably larger, like a Vault, and designed to house a fairly sizable population for a much more indefinite amount of time.

On the contrary, the entire issue is highly ambiguous. For one, upon death the last words of Enclave soldiers include lines like "For Eden..." and "I've failed you...". Which doesn't seem to indicate any disloyalty towards the President. Even Autumn during his final speech appears shocked and hurt that Eden had continued developing the FEV virus despite telling Autumn that he was not doing so, had Autumn commanded more authority than Eden then he would have heard about the continued research from the people performing it surely? Except that he didn't.

Second, Autumn issues an order and Eden didn't then retract it as illegitimate, the people in the Enclave simply follow orders - and when they've been told there's a hostile wastelander inside Raven Rock that's already been responsible for deaths of other soldiers I don't think that they are going to stand around questioning things. Eden, being a [censored], likely wanted to see his new personal pet in-action against the Enclave and purposefully chose not to issue a counter order - being an evil piece of [censored] and all.

Err no. He's a colonel in the United States Army, he's lived amongst these people for his entire life, the Enclave are the only people that he's responsible for not anyone outside of it; and he's willing to throw them all onto his moral sword? Doesn't gel with what we see of the man in-game. At the time of creating that log, was Eden threatening the survival of the Enclave? Nope. I see no reason in Autumn's actions to suppose that he was doing everything he did purely to defend the mainlanders. He wants to rule over the mainlanders, not sacrifice his entire life to save them, he's not blowing up Raven Rock for them - he's blowing it up for himself.

You see where I'm coming from right? To suppose that he consider the people in the Enclave and those outside of it as the same seems utterly ludicrous to me.


I didn't see any evidence of water purification, food production, living capacity for potentially hundreds of people in there? Considering we don't get to see much of the Rock and there's access corridors visible that we can't traverse we have no idea of it's capabilities. For example I don't think that that primary means of transport between Levels 2 and 1 is via the ZAX room do you? Place was massive, didn't even need expanding.

Eden was let down by that horrible self-destruction dialogue (and plagiarizing the curling virus plan).I still think he's a good "villain" but he was executed poorly in some aspects.

I also I have to disagree with the op, Frank Horrigan was just there to look cool.

He was just a rip-off of Richardson, hell I remember hearing somewhere that it was just going to be Richardson's consciousness uploaded into a computer but I can't remember the source for that so it might not be true.

What if the son is the main villian :0

I'm half expecting that the Institute was founded by the Sole Survivor's family and the protagonist's son has been its ruler for the past hundred or so years, making use of cryogenic suspension taken from Vault 111 to rule for one or two months out of the year, with the rest of the time being spent in suspension.