For me it was the opposite. Oblivion's dungeons felt far more generic because they were structured in scope and shape but not with the inhabitants in mind. Morrowind's dungeons felt like they were based on real cave structures without any real pattern. Everything wasn't scaled so they were more unpredictable.



That was a good thing. It helped offer the feeling that you were walking into some random cave like structure. It was unpredictable. Oblivion's dungeons felt like pure game mechanics with sidescroller/Dragon Age style level scaled waves ending without reward. A dungeon that isn't man made should be small and loosely populated. Also this is not nostalgia. I'm too old for Morrowind nostalgia and I just replayed the game.

Yeah they were "hand crafted" in Oblivion.......By ONE designer...... Skyrims dungeons a;so "hand crafted"......By multiple, i think 8 designers.... problem addressed!

Forget it. There's enough animosty in the world without the TES fanbase getting upset.

:tes:

Nothing in Oblivion came close to the experience of randomly stumbling across Eleidon's Ward for the first time in Morrowind. Oblivion's dungeons were bad when compared to the effort made outside.

daggerfall dungeons > MW/OB dungeons.

although Ebrocca in shivering isles is awesome.

in daggerfall you actually get lost in dungeons. I want this in skyrim.

huge dungeons that go so deep you come across rivers of magma.

Fallout 3 had great 'dungeons'. Their existence made sense, and they had lots of handplaced stuff.

i actually preferred the dungeons in shivering isles. they were mostly unique and i had a blast in them even more so than morrowinds dungeons the only exception being tribunal's awesome dungeon.

the best dungeosn to date are easily the giant ones you find once in a while in minecraft.........which is the most epic game EVER.

The one huge difference between Morrowind's dungeons and Oblvions was that Morrowind's were built up, piece by piece, from a lot of small elements. One cave would have a wooden stair at an odd angle, another would have a twisted handrail, another would have holes through the floor where boards were missing. They looked unique and different because they WERE unique, all of it hand-placed. The sheer amount of effort put into arranging all of that, plus all of the clutter within, still amazes me.

Oblivion's were mostly pre-made "sections", so the variation was limited, and you had exactly the same broken floor tile every so many steps, the same lump of dirt every so many paces, etc. After you had seen a few, they all looke identical, because the sections WERE identical. Only the arrangement varied from one dungeon to another. One designer was able to handle it all, because it was all just "copy/paste" the big cubical pieces. Granted, it's still a LOT of copying and pasting for one person, but there was no need to move, rotate, and align every rock or every panel individually.

The "sensible" approach for a sequel (which I hope they did in Skyrim) would be to use mostly "prefab" sections, but mix in a few hand-made ones with variations, or somehow superimpose "variant" elements by hand over the otherwise standard modules. In other words, the "good" sections would all be cut/paste modules, but the broken sections (and a few broken pieces on the otherwise good ones) would be hand-placed. That way, they would have most of the speed advantages of using the modular approach, and retain the customizability and "uniqueness" of MW's dungeons by having hand-built elements.

This.

If Fallout 3 was any indication at all, then Beth is heading in the right direction. Fallout 3's locations blew both Morrowind and Oblivions out of the water.

All I remember from the Fallout 3 "dungeons" is that they were scary as hell ^^

Morrowind I'd go into the dungeons knowing there was a chance I'd find some cool unique loot. Oblivion with its leveled loot made me never feel like I was going to get some superbly powerful item.

This is a common misconception. Oblivion had more than one dungeon designer.

Oblivion only had one guy who actually made the dungeons. It was told before by Todd I think. Or in a magazine. Or both.
So yes, only one dungeon level designer. It would explain why all dungeons "felt" the same.

i prefer Oblivion dungeons over Morrowind any day.

Same.

My favorite TES dungeons are Morrowind's Dwemer ruins and Oblivion's Ayleid ruins. I can't wait to check out the dungeons in Skyrim. i'd rather investigate a dungeon, any day of the week than follow some MQ.

Since there have been multiple discussions about this in other threads I remember this issue being brought up quite often and I remember one guy had a link to where it said some of the features of Oblivion and one of those features were 5- 8 dungeons designers. Sorry I cannot produce a link or anything but if you seach the forums good enough you will be able to find it.

Do you have a link for when Todd said there was only 1 level designer in Oblivion?

EDIT: Just Googleing I found this https://www.neoseeker.com/forums/22202/t585315-dungeon-info/

"When I joined Bethesda I became the sixth member of a growing dungeon team - the portion of the Oblivion dev team that basically does nothing but design, build, test, and tweak dungeons. We've since added two more dungeoneers to our ranks and as a group, we have now hand-crafted more than 200 subterranean locales to explore and pillage while playing Oblivion."

Wow I read that article and either they are lying through their teeth or they are discussing features that alas didnt make it in the game.
Here's some snippets I found amusing:

"At the same time, we wanted to make sure that the dungeons were unique and memorable - not just a series of cookie-cutter holes in the ground with some loot and a few skeletons" <- hah!

"Throughout the process, the dungeon type (marauder fortress, goblin cave, vampire lair, etc.) determines the architecture we use and the types of spaces the layout can and should use." <- also did not make it into the game. there were forts, caves, ayleid ruins and mines.

"Almost all of the dungeon encounters in Oblivion are leveled to the player, which means that as you progress through the game you will encounter tougher and more varied enemies. Note that this doesn't mean that all encounters are your level - not by a long shot. It just means that your level determines what types of creatures and NPCs you're likely to meet in the deepest, darkest places of Cyrodiil. Sometimes you'll run into low-level critters that you can dispatch with a single fireball; other times you won't be so lucky." <- I dont know wether to laugh or cry at that one.

"You'll also encounter a variety of traps and other obstacles that - like everything else - are tied to the theme of the dungeon. So while bandits will protect their hideouts with hastily assembled log traps and trip wires, the undead lurking in an ancient tomb might have more magical - but equally as deadly - defenses in place." <- lies

"but we've also added a little extra to individual dungeons wherever possible, to further differentiate them from each other."
<- way too little, always seems like an afterthought.

I do hope that this same kind of hype we are now having over Skyrim, some of the statements seem awfully familiar, doesnt turn out to be a load of hot air again.

I don't have the time to search through many old podcasts and GI-articles, but I'm 100% sure it was said in some of them that Oblivion only had one dungeon designer. You can see him in the "Making of Oblivion" videos.

Agreed. There were certainly things about Morrowind that were better than Oblivion (like faction requirements for example), but it seems to me Dungeons are not one of them.

Oblivion Dungeons seem much, much larger, diverse, fun and interesting. Despite what people say, Oblivion dungeons and many unique items and discoveries (just take a look at the Oblivion quiz thread for examples). Morrowinds seemed very small and repetitive to me. "Ie - what's this? I plate of jewels in a shrine. I wonder what will happen if I take one."

In Oblivion there are huge cavernous dungeons with many levels, or winding tight tunnels. Lakes, waterfalls. Ships and bottomless pits. Puzzles too. And very unique designs. The exception is the planes of Oblivion caves and towers, which were randomly generated. Sure all caves have rocks, and all Aylied ruins have Aylied architecture - but that is because caves have rocks, and cultures have a architecture style.

And let's not forget the Oblivion dungeons creative traps. And how about Cullotte which is an empty tomb until your reach a certain point. Or how about the buried pirate ship. Or the underground lake. Or the exile from Daggerfall. Etc etc etc.

One of the few things Morrowind did in dungeons that I'd like to see, is some more dungeons with non-hostile occupants. Almost every dungeon in Oblivion was occupied by something hostile.

But in general Oblivion dungeons were factually vast improvements over Morrowind. And I hope the improvements continue in Skyrim.



Just an example of comments that can be sad. The Oblivion dungeons are clearly hand crafted and unique. Easy to see by any one who looks. But there are still very unjustified comments like this. If you were a dungeon designer in Oblivion this factually incorrect criticism would seem very sad indeed. :shrug:

This article is even on the offical Elder Scrolls site. Maybe they were talking about a lead dungeon designer? In the video I am just curious what is exactly said? Does the guy say he is the only one who designed the dungeons? Does Todd say in the video that there was only one? I am just curious what was said because there seems to be conflicting information all over the place.


http://www.elderscrolls.com/community/darker-side-cyrodiil/

Actually, there is no 'etc etc' as youve just about summed em all up.

It is also untrue that these features did not exist in Morrowind. Morrowind had her own ship-in-a-dungeon, only that time it was a Nord burial ship.

Oblivion dungeons were not handcrafted. They were modular. Maybe you mean that they handcrafted different modules together?
I know that especially in Ayleid ruins it was glaringly obvious. Finding the exact same room so many times you already knew where the chests were. Never a nice book, never a lovely unique piece of gear.

And that is what Morrowind did better. The dungeons were less linear, better handcrafted and offered more unique features.

I'm pretty sure Morrowind dungeons and interiors were modular as well...

Actually there is. For example, necromancers experimenting on a goblin, drunken goblins, someone looking for their friend who became a lich and then meets an unfortunate and strange end (avoiding spoilers), a cave containing an Aylied Ruin that was destroyed by a Deadra Prince, Dungeons with factions fighting each other, etc, etc, etc.

So that is just factually wrong. I could go on and on.




Anyone who has explored in Oblivion knows this is not true. Morrowind dungeons were linear, Oblivion has multiple paths.

And it is absurd to say they are not hand crafted, or that rooms are repeated. It just isn't in the game. And yes there is nice armor and equipment in some dungeons. I'll avoid saying where to avoid spoilers. But it's there for those that explore. There is random loot, to enhance replay, unlike Morrowind where you know exactly where to go to get what. For example, getting a complete set of Master Alchemy equipment is actually challenging in Oblivion. Not a, "oh it's in these dungeons so I'll just go get it". But there are hand placed items.

But I'll stop now. It's just sad about incorrect information that gets repeated so many times it's accepted as fact.

Oblivion was an improvement, and hopefully Skyrim will improve further taking the best from both Morrowind and Oblivion ,and even Fallout 3.

I really dont know what game you played. Oblivion dungeons were linear. they were mostly just one big loop.
I also dont understand how you can say rooms did not repeat, when the huge room with the platform in the middle happened in at least half a dozen dungeons.
The vampire from Daggerfall was already mentioned btw.
And Oblivion did sorely lack in handplaced items, unique enemies and whatnot.

Also: No, there is no nice armour or weapons in dungeons. There is exactly one silver warhammer and exactly one enemy who always wears glass in the entire game. And that last one is quest related, so doesnt really count.

Random loot? Please spare me. save-reload-reload-reload. argh.

Handcrafted? Where please? They were not, and that is an actual fact. There was exactly one dungeon with a unique book. The rest was just.. clutter. And copy/pasted clutter too.

Actually there were several more unique dungeons in Oblivion, with some storyline and some hand-placed (but still leveled) enemies.

Like Vilverin's deeper chamber had a necromancer hunting on the bandits living on the upper levels, there's a cave leading to an underground Ayleid ruin, there's a cave where the bandits are under attack by Marauders.

And getting some good items in Morrowind was way too easy at times...