So I stumbled across an interesting tidbit of dialogue from an interview with Mr. Howard and other devs back in the pre-Morrowind days of development, and it's a point that is rather commonly debated amongst players ever since Oblivion. Yes I understand it's basically "Beating the dead horse" as it were, but I really just wanted to see what the general consensus was amongst the more devoted players who take the time to peruse the forums. Please also take the time to add any aditional on topic examples of this to the discussion. I find it very interesting to see how game developers change their opinions and approaches to developing their games over time. Also note, I'm not debating this particular example specifcally, but rather using it as the doorway to a more generalized question of "When did they lose the foresight that is so predominant in this particular statement?" If the devs at Bethesda, in my opinion of course, would embrace more of this method of thinking as they once did, then the games could return to their roots without sacrificing smooth gameplay. Flak me if you will, but I'll respect your opinions just as I expect you to respect mine Anywho, the aforementioned dialogue in all of its simplistic glory:


TH: "Your journey is an adventure. You don't just decide "I wanna be across the world". It should be an adventure, we should take advantage of it, y'know, getting somewhere. Finding a dungeon travelling up in the mountains, battling away through stuff. Roadside adventures are cool. Finding a guy on the side on the road, like "Have you seen my wagon?" That's cool, we're missing this opportunity by just having fast travel."

Discuss and add to this please. I would like to know the opinions of my gaming peers on this. Again, not JUST this, but rather the general change in how the games were made then and how they are now. The above is just a good example of this. Cite examples if able, and thanks for taking the time to read.

I don't know but it's interesting that there is a guy standing along side the road in Skyrim who needs their wagon wheel fixed.

When did they "lose their way"? When the games started costing Millions to make and the people funding the games wanted to appeal to the biggest audience possible.


And to appeal to everyone, you have to change lots of things.

I'm quite aware of that, yes. It's an unfortunate aspect of the ever evolving gaming community that "hardcoe" games now are more like any game from back in the day. If it doesn't hold your hand and give you an arrow so all you have to do is follow it like a dog after a biscuit then it's not a good game, and not a great game until it let's you teleport wherever you want. (Yes, I know, it's optional. I just don't like the direction the gaming industry is going with everyone whining because progression in game is not handed to them on a silver platter with a heaping side of God Mode)

Can tell where this conversation is going to go, and I'm quote fine with Oblivion's/Skyrim's fast travel system. Super convenient and when I want to ignore it which is often I simply don't use it.

Thank you. I'd rather the conversation go back to speculation as to why things are different then and now, or what in the older games' appeal could be redone now with little effect on accessibility for the average gamer, rather than the singular example I provided. Or, I'm sure it would be interesting to see where people feel Bethesda has improved a great deal, where they have a ways to go yet, and perhaps where they are faring worse than in the past. Good examples are very effective food for thought!

I hope you don't mind me editing there, just seemed easier to do it this way.

The whole thing is turning into a mad dash for the middle ground, as if there's some magical game that will appeal to everyone on every level, or that perfect game that will sell in huge numbers to people new to the series but won't piss off the existing fanbase. And if they don't make it, somebody else will. It's all BS, and gaming magazines and sites play into it all too often.

The worst bit about all this is that it drowns out disapproval. "Voting with your wallet" by not buying the game because you don't like what they've done is meaningless now, because the sales lost through some decisions are more than covered by those the changes attract. Which is why we see things like review bombing on Metacritic, or the infamous "Retake" movement. The dissenting opinions can't be heard over the new buyers, so those who disagree with the changes need to be more vocal. Which is why they're often branded "entitled" or something to that effect, allowing them to be written off and ignored.

Woah, got a little carried away there, sorry. You get the general idea of what I'm saying though.

I'm probably gonna catch hell for that.

My journeys through Skyrim have been just as much an adventure as my journeys through Vvardenfell or Cyrodiil.

It just gives you the option of getting somewhere quick. Morrowind had fast travel too, it was just a little more limited. Even though you can fast travel, Skyrim does reward the adventurer more-so than in any other ES games anyways.

Not at all; in fact it made it easier to see what you were doing. I know that the gaming industry is just that, an industry. The bottom line is sales, period. For those that value the games for what they were, not for what they have become following the ever changing and seemingly younger and younger audience (More handholding in the games continues to make me sick), this is terrible. I'd love to see a studio say "To hell with sales, we're gona make a game for the purists and it's going to be true to it's roots in every form and if it doesn't sell, then at least we know we contributed a great work of art and the fans who appreciate it will revel in its majesty." We all know how laughably impossible that is. Nothing escapes the influence of money. I consider games art, and it's sad to see a studio so influenced that they've altered their products. What studio isn't though? And they're probably happy with that, because they're pleasing their current audience. In my book, I'd be happy about that too I suppose. So for all my bluster and foofah there's really nothing we can do but say hey, "I enjoyed the games more when they used this model, but I'll continue to play because I love the series, even if it is changing from what made me fall in love with it in the first place." I understand why they've changed. I really do. I'm just sad that they haven't kept up the trends that I feel made them good originally.

I really don't buy into the whole "it's optional so it's completely okay" defence of fast-travel.

Including something as detrimental to the open-world experience as fast-travel or markers in the game, then relying on players to choose to ignore it is bad game design. It's essentially like releasing an inferior version of the game.

A lot of people, particularly those who played Morrowind, will understand how much the experience can be enhanced without such features. They'll ignore fast-travel as much as possible and make the HUD transparent. However a lot of other people won't know this. They'll see all these hand-holding features and just assume that's how the game should be played. They've been sold a lesser experience and don't know any better.

What Bethesda SHOULD do is design the whole game without fast-travel or markers. Then, they should tuck both away as options in the game's difficulty section that need to be enabled before use, with a little disclaimer about the quality of the game being impaired. That way, the game is released in it's ideal form, but the option is still there for people who feel they need it.

...

Anyway, more to the point... I think Bethesda's stance on this kind of thing has changed simply because they can no longer afford to try and make the best possible open-world RPG for fans of open-world RPGs. They're now trying to appeal to everyone under the sun with a gaming platform, so accordingly the direction of development changes and design philosophies have to make way.

I'm not sure they'll ever admit they're compromising the quality of a game to appeal to a bigger audience though... in fact they still adamantly stick to the idea that they're making the game they want to play. I do wonder though, what kind of TES game they'd make if they went the kickstarter approach like Obsidian instead. Something makes me think they wouldn't feel so passionately about streamlining and accessibility as key development goals for such a game.

Only if you were appealing to a niche to begin with. TES is an RPG game, it has a particular feel to it that appeals to people who like those types of experiences, its not like you can take an RPG and blend every other genre with it without destroying it. The basics of ES games are broadly appealing at any rate. Explore a wide open world, forge your own path, be who you want, and most importantly, be the hero!

All the changes they've been making to ES have been to try and make it the best game it can be. There have been good choices and bad choices. This idea that the impetus for this change is "appealing to a broader audience" is naive.

While I agree with you 100%, I don't think they will ever implement such a change just to please us "hardcoe" gamers who loved having to foot the journey and find quest objectives by *gasp* Looking for them, Mara forbid!

And for the love of Azura's Bosoms PLEASE bring back skill requirements for Guild Advancement. I know that's random and all, but how much sense does it honestly make that I can walk in as an Assassin and all of a sudden be the Archmage in a week? None whatsoever. If I'm gona be the Archmage, I should be required to have the necessary skills to even begin the journey past initiate, and even more so in later ranks. Again, ala Morrowind, but it made perfect sense and it made the immersion much more palpable.

Personally I'd be completely fine with the removal of quest Icons. I tend to ignore them on the compass anyways. Lack of quest markers makes things much more entertaining when we have to find it on our own anyways. The reason I like Oblivion's and Skyrim's FT though is because it lets me travel where I want when I want which is convenient when I don't feel like crossing the same path I just passed days ago and the cell hasn't reset yet, and also because since map travel and travel by carriage end up in the same exact loading screen anyways I'd rather have the one that takes me right where I want to go. If traveling by carriage or boat or whatever they add though was in real time, that would be far more immersive and worth it to me. Then it would have a point of being superior to map travel for my taste.

To me this also points out that questlines are too short. Seems they always are. It especially stinks when a questline is fun but ends quick.

I'm only going to say this once.

Fast travel is the answer to running around Morrowind with your level 70 warrior who is fresh out of Intervention scrolls, doesn't know any Intervention, Mark, or Recall spells and finds himself suddenly and permanently stuck between two rocks. That's right - the character you've spent hours on is now defeated not by Dagoth Ur, or Hircine, or bat-[NUMINIT] crazy gods, but by two rocks.

And suddenly fast travel isn't so bad.

And don't get me started about the compass points versus spending two hours trying to find that [NUMINT] bandit on the north coast of Morrowind...