So you'd rather be able to make the best armor at the start of the game, then have trivial content for 90% of the rest of the game?

Thats fun??

I see you choose to ignore the faulty premise of which operate under but that is fine, I keep proving how ignorant your idea is.

Ever notice those target dummies in some of the dungeons/caves/battlegrounds? While you were forging those daggers, the villains were practicing their combat skills. Seems more plausible to me that if I'm dong something, someone else is probably doing something else as well. The idea that you are the only one or should be the only one doing something is narcissistic and unrealistic.


Say you are a level one and spend the majority of your time crafting. You do no level up. So all villains are the stock level and so are you, same goes with combat skills. Now, you decided to wear your upgraded armor and use your upgraded weapons that you've made and benefited from by crafting. When you do this, come back and post a new thread about how overpowered and unbalanced the game is. :nod:

Keep in mind, if this is how you enjoy your game. So be it. But complaining about not having your cake and eating it too is bound to draw criticism. With that said, I love gamesas incorporating a system in which it has consequences you for exploiting it. It should not matter to me how others enjoy their game, but their is something impure about not playing a game but rather exploiting it and that irks me. So when I see a thread like yours I seriously laugh at the time you wasted trying to exploit the game.

Just lower the difficulty. When I made my sneak thief my combat was terrible, then I lowered it to 2/5 difficulty down from adept, but I had to I had "powerleveled" my pickpocketing and sneaking to the 90s by making mad gold breaking into homes and selling it to fences. I was rich but weak in combat. So I lowered the difficulty, got up to level 55+ then was able to raise it back up when I was killing way too easily.

That's nothing to do with my point. Congrats for being unable to read and understand even such a simple sentence.


I've already treated this "reasoning" above. Nice hypocrisy talking about "ignoring faulty premises" and "being ignorant" considering how that's the only thing you've done so far.


Already pointed at the strawman this "argument" is. See the hypocrisy reference above.

Why is lowering the difficulty bad?

I know what your point is, you don't want the game to scale the enemies based on the levels you gain while crafting.

OUR point is: You're an idiot.

You craft, you get better gear, you are stronger in combat. Its really THAT simple. If you don't want to deal with it, stop crafting armor.

Nobody is gonna agree with your terrible illogical argument that the player should be allowed to make the best gear in the game and still be fighting Skeevers and Bandits. Its stupid design.

You lost me at " leveled Smithing and Enchanting in my first walkthrough very intensive"

You went out of your way to become an enchanter/smith. So that's what you were/are.

Next time, if you want to be a warrior, swing a sword at bad guys instead of banging on an anvil or using an enchanting table. <- that was easy!

Level forging first.

Forge legendary ebony armour and legendary ebony axe.

Embrace immortality.

No, my point is : there is no logical link between A) someone learning something and B) everyone else in the world becoming better at fighting. I can't really spell it even simpler than that, and yet you manage to miss the point. That's somehow frightening.


So far you've been unable to even understand a very simple sentence, nor make a logical reasoning that even a ten years old kid would be able to.
You don't really are in position call anybody an idiot nor to make judgement on logic.


And, yet again, this is completely beside whatever I said. See above.

If you want to play a blacksmith, you SHOULD get your ass kicked. Seriously.

certain people shouting hipocrisy and strawmans and claiming something has nothing to do wieth there point...when in fact it defeats there point and therefore needs to be addressed is quite annoying.

does it make sense that you fashioning a dagger means enemies become stronger? not really, depends on your perspective of whats happening. if you consider just the creation of the item then now, but if you consider the time (levels) put in then yes. the bandit put its time(levels) in banditry things, you put yours in making a dagger. so it makes sense, in fact the only argument you could make against it would be using this as an example for disliking scaled environments...which is moot beacuse skyrim is a scaled environment and if you dont like it then wait for a mod to change it or leave.

also regardless of whether it has nothing direct to do with your "point" you have to react and reason with it if it indirectly effects your argument, or if causes such a problem elsewhere in the game that it would need to be addressed for a different reason.

take for example fashioning th best armor/weapons/enchants early and waltzing thru everything else. this is fun how? yous ay its irrelevant to your point, i say its relevant to bethesda making a game. you [censored] about the rationale of makin ga dagger results in more powerful enemies yet scoff at the rationale of the point above?

yoru are not keeping in line of your argument, you are building a fake wall to anyone attempting to debate your stance by artificially narrowing the allowable space for debate. in other words, its not besides teh point, its that if that point is explored itd prove your own stance isnt up to snuff.

learn to have a open debate instead of putting a bucket on your head. until then you are not capable of rational debate.

No, you have not.



You think this proves something or makes a point? What is the straw man argument? Why is invalid? For some reason you think by merely suggesting it is a straw man you've "treated" this "reasoning" when you've done nothing other than label it. Poorly, I might add. If all you want to do is toss labels around, your a bigger troll than I thought. Try taking the time and communicate why I'm wrong. The problem is, I'm not and you know it.

You can start with telling me how balanced and realistic it is for a player to power-level crafting, or focus primarily on crafting and have significantly improved weapons and armor while at the same time maintaining the same basic level of combat skills between player/villain. When you explain this effectively, then I'll stop spanking you on this subject.

Yeah, thats exactly what I said. Someone else gave you a "logical" reason, you waste time hitting an anvil, the enemies use their time using their swords and bows and magic. You just choose to ignore it and attempt to belittle the poster because they didn't agree with you.

I gave you another reason in the scope of game design. You are improving, the game has scaling enemies, so they improve too.

I've understood everything you've said, I just don't agree with any of it.

What do you WANT?! You sound like you want to stand in Whiterun, power level blacksmithing to 100, and expect the game to just roll over and die for you. Its not going to happen, its never going to happen, if you can't deal with how the game was DESIGNED, don't [censored] play it.

Thats the last thing I have to say to you.

Except that once again, master crafting is stronger than maxing out combat skills.

Its not as good a way of starting play; a more balanced approach should be taken. But in a vacuum, a master crafter can have a stronger damage output, higher armour than someone who maxes out the combat skills related to those pieces of gear.

Then you are just stupid for not learning when someone teaches you. At first I thought it was ignorance but reality set in.

Tell me why you as a player should be the ONLY one learning things that makes you more powerful in the game and how that equates to a more balanced game.




No he is not. You are degenerating this discussion into a flame war. You can no longer defend your premise but must keep attacking. :flamethrower: Many trolls have done the same. Try supporting you opinion with logic and reason instead of labels and claiming of others faulty logic. You have to have some meat on your argument before anyone takes you serious.

B+

I took off points for spelling , but grammar aside, this is spot on. Good post.

"Hmm, what's this book???"

LOCKPICKING LEVEL INCREASED

Congratulations: LEVEL 50!

"Dammit! Nooooo"

It just can't be done unless you don't do any combat at all. The way leveling works is low skill points come really fast while high skill points take longer to get. If you level up enchanting, smithing, locking picking and pickpocketing high up then go find combat your low one handed or armour rating with rise really fast. Every monster will give an attribute point. It may be a bit of a grind at first but it will quickly work out. It's not game breaking.

Yes I have. In the directly previous message. Here :
"But everyone becoming stronger in fighting because you made some iron dagger IS logical and realistic ? Yeah, right... :facepalm:
Man, next time I read a book and learn something, it means that everyone on Earth has became a more proficient fighter ! You wonder why we aren't all elite soldiers by now, considering how often someone in the world has improved in some skill.

Making some particular NPC improve with time (time, not PC's skillup) would be, actually, rather fun and immersive (if handled correctly).
Making the whole world level up because the PC learn something ? No, that's just dumb and absurd. "

I can also add that someone also pointed the hole in this argument about how he can spend the same time walking in circle and the foes won't level up, so the "time spent" argument is just inconsistent.


Yeah, you ignore the arguments showing you wrong, then pretend they weren't made, but I'm the troll :rolleyes:


I've yet to talk about balance, which is a point that is, even though it's not unimportant, completely different than the one about the logic of level scaling (for the record, I don't consider that level scaling is a necessity, nor even a good way, to balance, but again that is another point).

So far, I've asked "where is the logic ?", and the answers received have amounted in something like half insults and hypocrite statements (like "you don't have answered it" when the answer is right in the previous post), one quarter of completely beside the point answers (like "balance" when I ask about "logic"), and one quarter of reasoning that just don't hold water (like "time spent", see above).


Yeah, you spend your time throwing "idiot", "ignorant", "troll" and other names, ignoring or derailings the points, skipping arguments and then saying they aren't made, but *I*'m the one starting a flame war. Yet again, hypocrisy much.

Here is another way to look at it.


Lets change the variables but not the context.


Say another player was playing in the game with you. Lets say he wanted to be a villain. Lets say he camps out in a dungeon somewhere. While you spend your time crafting, your premise would suggest the player would have to sit in the dungeon and not have any ability to improve. Lets say you go to find the other player and you destroy him because you have superior weapons and armor. Is that fair? Is that balanced? Is that fun?

Now, lets replace the player I spoke of with a computer generated monster and apply your premise. Does the answers change? If so, why?

/thread.

I will say, this Perk system svcks. Its a [censored] version of World of Warcraft's Talent Point system...which...is horrible.

What is the point in doing Lock Picking?!? SERIOUSLY?!? Why would you put any points in lock picking? like...AT ALL? I accidently did put like 2 perk points in it thinking Wax Key or Lock picks never break...but..I realised you level up quicker when Lock Picks DO break...LMAO When you hit level cap...you will never be short of lock picks, and buying them just gives the shop keep more money so you can trade other items for them...

Solution:

Crafting does not raise your character level.
Crafting is moved instead to crafting level.
Crafting perks are moved to the crafting level.
Crafting level cannot surpass your character level.
Crafting materials are much harder to find.
Crafting trees are expanded greatly giving you more options of customization with trees.
Crafting trees now force sacrifice so you cannot get "the best" choices from all 3 trees and skip the other perks that are widely viewed as "pointless".
Crafting now offers the ability to create more unique and unusual items.(Random output depending on knowledge and strength of ingredients/materials)
Crafting potions that affect your Enchanting, Smithing, or Alchemy abilities removed.
Non-Combat Companions introduced that will gather crafting materials for you once a day and sell items for you in a store.
Armor and Weapon Dyeing added.
Appearance Slots added. (Clothing and Appearance items added)
Spellcrafting added and replaces Enchanting.
Spellcrafting allows players to combine and craft virtually any spell (system more akin to Daggerfall)
Enchanting now is only done by NPCs. Tiers of enchantments and recipes scale with the player and can be found. These enchantments cost ingredients and gold.(Mage Guild)
Pickpocketing, Lockpicking, and Speechcraft reworked.
Pickpocketing - The effectiveness of this command works off of awareness only. (This is a check off of the Sneak skill and takes into account awareness ie noise from armor perks etc.)
Lockpicking - Removed from the game. "Open" spell added to the game for players who invest in Magicka.
Speechcraft - This ability is separate. Depending on the choices you make dictate the options and Persuasion techniques you can employ. (Reworked to work more like Mass Effect's Paragon/Renegade system)

What Bethesda should have done was cap the tradeskills per level.

Say, 5 points per level? So you could only get to level 100 smithing at level 20.

Would be a little annoying I suppose and likely unbalanced if you tried to do it now, but it would have prevented terrible threads like this from ever getting started.

But the items you make, potions, and enchantments make up for it

:D

No it does not.
When I ask "where is the logic in having everyone in the world better at fighting when I forge a dagger ?", answering "YOU WANT EVERYTHING TO ROLL OVER AND DIE !" is a http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html, not an answer. Answering "you're an ignorant and an idiot" is just an insult (and quite a shaky one at that, considering the situation of the person who throw it), not an answer. Answering "because the game is scaled" is a http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html, not an answer (the game is scaled, it's a FACt ; it's not a reason why it SHOULD be scaled). All those are "logical fallacies", or more bluntly are "friggin' hypocrite ways of talking nonsense because I can't have an actual good argument to make".

The only answer that I got which was actually related to the question was "because while you were forging, they were practicing". But it sounds much more like rationnalization (i.e. "trying to twist in a reason for something that just doesn't make a lot of sense to begin with), because it's terribly inconsistent (you can spend weeks walking, nobody will learn anything, but if you spend two hours fighting or brewing potions then everyone suddendly got better at fighting) and it's just MUCH of a stretch (if everyone was always improving each time someone learn something, why everyone isn't an expert at everything by now, considering the years that happened before the game even started ?).


Only if the answer is actually relevant to the question and not just a way to sidetrack. If you're going to say "it makes sense because it's logic", and I ask "how it is logic ?" and show an absurdity in the reasoning, you can't just then switch gear and talk about balance, because that's not what your argument was in the first place (I'm using the "you" in general here, not you in particular). You can use balance as an additionnal reason, but that doesn't make your initial claim of "it's logic" any more true.


Look at the answers in this thread. Does the avalanche of "OP is an idiot" and the circus of logical fallacies as answer to a very simple question give the idea that proponents of level scaling are having a "rational debate" ? Like others, you should not give lesson about things you're the first to breach.