To Bethesda: Trinity Restored quest is Unacceptable : V - Skyrim

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:22 pm

The real issue is, that there aren't really any counter questlines.

You can destroy the dark brotherhood, but the substance of that task is very shallow, you are rewarded far less, and can't even ensure its absolute destruction since at least two members will escape regardless.

You can't turn on the companions, and destroy/reform the entire guild to be non werewolves until you yourself have already been forced to become one.

You can't side with the Thalmor agent, and sabotage/take control of the college of Winterhold.

You can't destroy the thieves operation in Riften, you can't expose/oust Maven Blackbriar, and you can't tell Nocturnal to go get lost.

Another thing....

In Oblivion, you were Mercer Frey. You were that skilled, exceptional, professional thief with balls of steel. If not for the good of the people (since Oblivion's Thieves' Guild was more Robin Hood like), you were stealing for the pure thrill of it all and for bragging rights. Your exploits were cunning, clutch and impressive, unlike in Skyrim where you basically do nothing but walk into people's houses and just smash their crap and punch them until they give you cash...
In Skyrim....why am I hunting Mercer for having balls of steel? Why am I hunting him for being incredibly cunning and skilled? No no, he's what I want to BECOME. Honor among thieves, but tbh the Skyrim Thieves' Guild feels like it's filled with absolute idiots. They kinda had it coming.

Y'know what I want? I want an option at the end to screw over Mercer Frey, the Skyrim Thieves' Guild AND Nocturnal. I want to do what only Emer Dareloth ever dared to do and steal from a god herself. I want to take the skeleton key from Mercer Frey, and then when the Nightingales ask me to return it to Nocturnal, I run off with it. And all the treasure.

Instead, what do I get? I can swear my soul to Nocturnal? Why? For revenge? THE HELL DO I CARE? I wasn't even around when Mercer did all that crap; that's not MY revenge to have, that's Karliah's.
I REALLY wonder who wrote the Thieves' Guild. Who the hell wrote this and said "hey let's have the player swear his soul to Nocturnal for all eternity just to help Karliah, a random dumb [censored] he JUST MET, get revenge on some guy that you really don't know all that well. THEY'LL LOVE IT!"

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:05 am

The state that Thieves Guild is in at the momment, I don't think they can care about anybodyelse except themselves. Plus they have a leader who is corrupt to the bone. I can still see good in thieves guild quest. Helping an innocent soul prove herself innocent and restore her status to her former glory. It doesn't matter what the group is up to, afterall they will eventually follow the actions of the leader.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:23 am

Another thing....

I completely agree... but OP is a bit off..
There is a difference between complaining about how a story is structured within a game and complaining about a concept.
To me it seems that OP wants to have the nightingale armor for aesthetic reasons.. than complains that he/she must be a thief and pledge to a daedra to get it.. One can not like it because it less morally grey than in previous games... but a thief is a thief.. The only valid complaint is that the questline doesn't offer much sneaking and stealing..

But dismissing a quest because an inherent criminal organisation is at its basis still a criminal organisation.
It is imho pointless and void of any logic to complain about a guild in such a way.
It's like watching a horror movie, you were expecting a thriller but you wanted to see that cameo by your favorite star.. after sitting through the movie you start to complain that you don't like horror movies..

What you and others are doing.. is legitimately complaining (whether one agree with the critique or not) To keep the movie anology: You point out why the movie is a bad movie.. not that the movie is in a genre you don't like..

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:58 pm

The real issue is, that there aren't really any counter questlines.

You can destroy the dark brotherhood, but the substance of that task is very shallow, you are rewarded far less, and can't even ensure its absolute destruction since at least two members will escape regardless.

You can't turn on the companions, and destroy/reform the entire guild to be non werewolves until you yourself have already been forced to become one.

You can't side with the Thalmor agent, and sabotage/take control of the college of Winterhold.

You can't destroy the thieves operation in Riften, you can't expose/oust Maven Blackbriar, and you can't tell Nocturnal to go get lost.

I agree it would be nice to have alternatives. I don't think I'd ever side the the Thalmor agent myself but some might. The other three definately depending on the character.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:38 pm

I agree it would be nice to have alternatives. I don't think I'd ever side the the Thalmor agent myself but some might. The other three definately depending on the character.

It would spice up the game a quite a bit if you were given the option of becoming a Thalmor agent. For the sneaky type this group would be beneficial since you are most likely to be told to search for Talos cults and to report back to Elenwen. It would put a lot more freedom in the game knowing that you can choose to be on what side you want to be on.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:30 pm

Ugh, couldn't even read that last post. (Edit: Not the last one, the previous one - formatting was a bit messed up.)

The REAL real issue here is that in Morrowind and Oblivion you weren't forced to become a thug in order to play a thief character. Yeah yeah, you don't have to join the guild, I get it. You don't have to do the questline. I get that too. But is there any other option for a thief?

At least the DB is straightforward - you know what you're getting into, and it IS all it's cracked up to be - endless murder. And as far as eliminating the DB, you most certainly can kill the idea - the sanctuary in Skyrim is the last known location of the DB, and when the character joins, they're not even following the five tenets and don't have any connection to the Night Mother. So the idea was dead already - without your character's help, they would just disappear.

There is the option to get the speech perks so as to sell stolen goods to merchants you've invested in and play as a freelance thief.
In MW and Oblivion if my thief wanted to progress the quest line she had to go around Robin Hooding. If she'd wanted to be a goody two shoes she'd have joined the Imperial Cult, not a criminal organisation.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:15 pm

All I want is the option to destroy the TG like the DB. The Jarl wants it, the town people want it, Lioness wants it, as Thane of Riften it kinda like my duty to do it. But no, the only thing you can do with these $%&^*#$ Jerks is to either ignore them or help them be bigger jerks. Thanks for that Bethesda.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:52 pm

It's your own [censored] choice if you follow the questline or not. Live with the consequences.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:31 pm

The only parts I agree with is the requirement to join Nocturnal to complete the Guild's quests, if it was hinted at in the beginning, then fine, but up until that moment there is nothing to do with daedra or mystical elements involved, it's just a guild of thieves. So having to go down that route to become the leader is ridiculous, especially as you don't really gain anything from it anyway.

As well as not being able to destroy the guild.

As for complaining that an organisation known as the 'Thieves Guild' is immoral... well... why did you even join them if you dislike that? They were quite clearly not the good guys.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:44 pm

Just curious, has anyone just tried getting the armor then leaving Nightingale Hall? You do get the armor before you take the oath, and even Brynjolf has a "wait a minute" moment before agreeing.

I don't know what the consequences (if any) would be back at the TG HQ, but hey, sweet armor and no oath required.

My first character was a "do everything once" type. My second was a thief but took out the DB because that's where she drew the line. My current character is mostly lawful so she isn't joining the TG or DB and probably won't join the companions because she's not a warrior. Despite this, she's still finding plenty of things to do and she hasn't even made it to High Hrothgar yet because she's not really all that interested in being Dragonborn.

I guess my point is that there are plenty of RP options outside of what is written into the game, BUT I kind of had to play through the various quests first to understand what opportunities existed (and how to avoid certain things). Freestyle roleplay isn't everyone's bag, though.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:22 pm

Wait, wait, wait... I'm trying to wrap my head around the fact that a pixelated character has a soul... o.0 - 'nuff said and yes, in that instance, it IS only a game... :dry:

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:38 pm

The big finale of the thieves guild quest line is unacceptable because it goes against many strong core values that I have in real life.

Stopped riiiight here. If you have issues playing a fantasy game because it conflicts with real life ideals, I'm not sure you should be allowed to grip a controller or sit at a keyboard.

As for the actual questline in terms beyond the extreme, I feel like it did happen sort of fast. "Okay okay you gotta swear your soul away to Nocturnal and do whatever she says forever STOP FALLING BEHIND AND GO WITH THE COOL KIDS."

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:54 am

I don't enjoy playing a scumbag and I don't enjoy being stuck forever in a filthy cave after I die.

Looks like the TG is not for you then. Skip the entire questline, I did.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:01 pm

Im playing a good guy right now so I don't do the thieves guild, dark brotherhood most of the deadra quests and I don't side with the stormcloaks. If you want to be a good guy don't do evil quests. During the main quest when I had to find Esberen I purposely messed up that theif guy you have to talk to quest just so I could find out where the rataway was.

There is only one play style that really requires you to join any of the guilds and thats mage so you can get access to master level spells and even then you don't actually have to do anything more than gain entrance to the college.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:22 pm

The big finale of the thieves guild quest line is unacceptable because it goes against many strong core values that I have in real life. At this point it sort of ruins the Skyrim game for me. It brought the game to a crashing halt. When Karliah told me to agree to take the oath, I stopped and quit the game.

* The idea that I have to have my soul stuck in a cave for all of eternity just because of some crummy 3rd rate deity is awful. I mean really? Torment myself for all eternity just so I can help a guild which makes ordinary people's lives miserable? I'd rather spend my afterlife eating barbequed meat and drinking wine with the heroes in Sovngarde. That's far better than having my spirit stuck in a dank, dark, cold cave forever.

* Extortion, loan sharking, corruption, and such are things I really hate in real life. I didnt' want to be involved in supporting all that disgusting stuff. I just wanted to get some interesting quests that would improve my sneak skills. It would have been nice to have thief quests that were about stealing fabulous treasures from corrupt people and corrupt organizations, like they did in the Conan the Barbarian movies.

* I'm a very independent person in real life who absolutely can't stand being under anyone else's thumb. But you railroaded me into this quest line where I'm supposed to enslave myself to defending a 3rd rate goddess both in life and in death. NO. I won't do that. That is awful and unacceptable.

* In real life I believe in honesty, integrity, and doing the right thing. My philosophy is more in line with Mjoll the Lioness. I basically got involved with the thieves guild just to find out what the unusual gems were. Up until then I had avoided stealing anything at all.

* I would much rather have a quest line where I get to humiliate and kill Maven Black Briar, free Riften from corruption, and destroy the thieves guild. In real life I hate all the corruption in government. That's the kind of thing I'd like to destroy, not support! The thieves guild to a large extent is about undeservedly taking a cut of everyone's profits. In real life that's basically what the government does through taxation. I hate that.

You may say it's just a game, but as a player my enjoyment of the game depends on liking the kind of role I'm playing in the game's world. I don't enjoy playing a scumbag and I don't enjoy being stuck forever in a filthy cave after I die.

I will say that the Nightingale armor is the best looking, coolest, most beautiful armor in the game, so it svcks that the way to get it is to finish this awful quest. This armor is so cool looking that I could imagine an entire game being made around a character that wears it.

If this really bothers your sensibilities in real life, OP... then don't play it.

It's a game, it's make-believe. If it's giving you problems or very seriously offending you, then you do have the option to not play the Thieves Guild Quests. Besides, it's very apparent in the Quest line where said quest line is heading. It would've been easier had you just left it unfinished.

But you chose to finish it.

If you're offended, you have only yourself to blame.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:03 pm

I've stated this before, but don't mind doing so again - just RP that your character is joining these organizations and performing these actions in an "undercover" capacity to suit his/her own ends. That way, you're not REALLY pledging your soul to Nocturnal. It's like a "I had my fingers crossed behind my back when I took the oath" kind of thing.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:24 am

One problem I have with Skyrim is that there are no 'good' guilds. None. Even the CoW refuses to help ANYONE unless their ass is on the line. Companions? Nope - they're just mercenaries (not even getting into the whole wolfie thing). Imperials and Stormcloaks? Nope - there are entire threads devoted to why each side is as nasty as the other. Blades? Nope - they want you to kill a dragon who has behaved himself for thousands of years and helped the mortals retain the Way of the Voice. Thieves Guild? Hardly.

Alot of people have talked about how it's just a game, or about how "that's how things are in RL" but they are missing the point entirely. I play games to GET AWAY from real life - just relax and not have to think about my everyday problems for a while. Along with my actions in Skyrim having literally no consequences, I also don't have the ability to do anything GOOD. (Ok, Temple of Mara is about the only exception.) Saving the world from Alduin? Who gives a [censored] when the world you're saving A - doesn't care and B - is so corrupt and nasty I don't want to save it anyways.

I liked the Robin Hood aspect of the Oblivion TG - you actually made an impact on people you saw all around you. Same with the old FG and MG. In Skyrim, it's all about self-serving power mongering. You get through the guilds just to get cool gear. There is just no inner satisfaction that you actually make a difference (even if it is just a game).

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:49 pm

Your soul doesn't have to serve her for all eternity, only until her conditions are met. The 'until' part means that you do your duty and move on at some point, and eternity is a long time. Plenty of time left to hang out in Sovngarde.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:30 am

I've made a special one of a kind poison that will paralyze Mercer and let me bring him to justice. I think I'll shoot it at the first person I see.

Time to write a journal. I'll write it in a language that I can't possibly know.

Karliah's trying to drive the thieves guild out of business? Mercer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=is08Fon2Qsw

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:09 pm

Stopped riiiight here. If you have issues playing a fantasy game because it conflicts with real life ideals, I'm not sure you should be allowed to grip a controller or sit at a keyboard.

Pretty much this ^.

This whole thread is ridiculous, OP should look into playing Spyro or something a bit less advlt.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:05 pm

Why do people complain about a criminal organization committing crimes.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:10 am

I've made a special one of a kind poison that will paralyze Mercer and let me bring him to justice. I think I'll shoot it at the first person I see.

Time to write a journal. I'll write it in a language that I can't possibly know.

Karliah's trying to drive the thieves guild out of business? Mercer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=is08Fon2Qsw

Marcus's dad deserves to be the next High King of Skyrim. Thanks for sharing that video clip

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:08 am

It's your own [censored] choice if you follow the questline or not. Live with the consequences.

http://thecaptainsblogdotme.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/jackie-chan-meme1.jpg

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:57 pm

I've made a special one of a kind poison that will paralyze Mercer and let me bring him to justice. I think I'll shoot it at the first person I see.

Time to write a journal. I'll write it in a language that I can't possibly know.

Karliah's trying to drive the thieves guild out of business? Mercer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=is08Fon2Qsw

"We're thieves, not murderers. But feel free to kill everyone anyway, there's no lasting repercussions."

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:54 am

The big finale of the thieves guild quest line is unacceptable because it goes against many strong core values that I have in real life.

I find it funny that this came from a person who calls himself "Killionaire"
So whats your strong core values in real life? Kill a million people?

Dude relax its only a game, like what other people said, if you didn't like the thieves guild, don't join them.
You shouldn't have had the concept they were goody robin hoods when you first met them at the ragged flagon.

i personally enjoyed the thieves guild quest, and the nightingale storyline was a very nice addtion.
So much better then the stupid mage quest that beth shortchanged us mages for.