Bethesda wants to bring mods to consoles (Thread #3)

Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:04 am

I can give one prime example how this will not go over well. What is it? The persistent belief by console players that the CS/GECK/CK could work on the console. Despite how many times it's driven in, this false belief still persists.

The CS/GECK/CK is not some novelty level editor. It is a professional-level tool, requiring a very atypical and more complex UI (as in... more than a controller) and potentially high hardware requirements. The game engine is optimized to run the game. The SDK is optimized to make the game. And that's just the CS/GECK/CK. There's Script Extenders (which I'm certain the console lawyers will not allow under any circumstances due to the way it operates) and there's Elminster's xEdit app (which is just as vital as the main Beth-released tool). I'm also sure that there'd have to be a way to manipulate the load order, since the official PC launchers do not have such a method. Console users would be without a major boon to the scripting system and be unable to sort out mod conflicts.

Since this fact has to be repeated ad nauseum, it is telling how well console users will be able to handle basic tenets of mod using.

Console users will get exasperated having to deal with mod handling. Modders will get exasperated with dealing with a huge increase in the number of people who just make like Oscar Rogers.

If console users learn to handle the intricacies of even just mod using, it would work. But I'm not holding my breath on that.

That Todd thinks this is a good idea indicates that Todd doesn't really know how things work with gamesas game mods.
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Rozlyn Robinson
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:22 am

I think saying that bringing mods to consoles would invalidate the advantages of PC is a ridiculous thing to say - mods are the icing on the cake, but the real advantages are elsewhere.

And, though I've written it too many times already, 90% is too round a number, and the maths simply doesn't add up, it's utterly illogical for it to be anything but an out-of-the-air number for a majority.

And, of course, "gamesas want to bring mods to consoles" is far from "gamesas are bringing mods to consoles" - I want a million pounds and several beautiful women, but that doesn't make it any more likely to happen.
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Laura Shipley
 
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Post » Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:39 pm

I can give one prime example how this will not go over well. What is it? The persistent belief by console players that the CS/GECK/CK could work on the console. Despite how many times it's driven in, this false belief still persists.

The CS/GECK/CK is not some novelty level editor. It is a professional-level tool, requiring a very atypical and more complex UI (as in... more than a controller) and potentially high hardware requirements. The game engine is optimized to run the game. The SDK is optimized to make the game.

Since this fact has to be repeated ad nauseum, it is telling how well console users will be able to handle basic tenets of mod using.

Console users will get exasperated having to deal with mod handling. Modders will get exasperated with dealing with a huge increase in the number of people who just make like Oscar Rogers.

If console users learn to handle the intricacies of even just mod using, it would work. But I'm not holding my breath on that.


They aren't talking about making mods on the console, but on the PC which can work on the console, and which the console can have access to. Please don't generalize all console users based on the comments on a few.
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WYatt REed
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:45 am

maybe someone knows better then me but if anyone has used XBLA indie games can't modders just use that as an outlet to add their touches to game via that way for free and it would just patch into the game somehow....I don't really know I could be completely wrong in this idea.
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Beat freak
 
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Post » Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:27 pm

They aren't talking about making mods on the console, but on the PC which can work on the console, and which the console can have access to. Please don't generalize all console users based on the comments on a few.


The basic fact that they opted for a simple-to-use console instead of a more complex PC indicates they have less likelihood of being adept at handling mods. It is not a simple plug'n'play affair, especially after the mods start piling up. You'll have to actually go into the game directories to shuffle stuff around.

And if it's any indication, you'll have to alter important game system files to even get some mods to work. Look up "Archive Invalidation" and see what we have to do to get some custom content to work.

My FONV folder is 16 GB. My Oblivion folder is 25 GB. My FO3 folder is 33 GB. Granted, much may be abandoned-in-place or backed up stuff because I'm a modeler/texturer, but it's still a huge chunk of HDD space for content set to be loadable into the game.
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Emma Parkinson
 
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Post » Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:34 pm

The basic fact that they opted for a simple-to-use console instead of a more complex PC indicates they have less likelihood of being adept at handling mods. It is not a simple plug'n'play affair, especially after the mods start piling up.


Do you think it's an either/or scenario, I'm not writing this from my console. The fact that I play on a console, tells you absolutely zero about how adept I would be at handling mods, just as buying a PC does not automatically make you a mod expert. I play mainly on a console because I like convenience, it does not mean I'm incapable of adapting to inconvenience. I also use a calculator some times, it does not imply that I can't do math in my head though.

You'll have to actually go into the game directories to shuffle stuff around.


Gee, are you telling me that in order to modify my game, I'd have to modify it.

And if it's any indication, you'll have to alter important game system files to even get some mods to work. Look up "Archive Invalidation" and see what we have to do to get some custom content to work.

My FONV folder is 16 GB. My Oblivion folder is 25 GB. My FO3 folder is 33 GB. Granted, much may be abandoned-in-place or backed up stuff because I'm a modeler/texturer, but it's still a huge chunk of HDD space for content set to be loadable into the game.


Sure, not all mods would be playable, mainly because of the hardware limitations, but stuff like making your own weapons or skins is not major operations. Obviously there will not be the same lvl of ability to manipulate.
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Enny Labinjo
 
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Post » Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:16 pm

I don't understand why people are even getting their hopes up in the slightest about this. It's not going to happen.
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Ann Church
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:02 am

The basic fact that they opted for a simple-to-use console instead of a more complex PC indicates they have less likelihood of being adept at handling mods. It is not a simple plug'n'play affair, especially after the mods start piling up. You'll have to actually go into the game directories to shuffle stuff around.
I believe that that's simply not true. I'm a console gamer, but my friend lent me his PC copy so I could see what mods are like. Maybe I'm super smart for a console gamer, maybe all the mods I chose happened to be simple ones, but the longest I spent trying to install a mod was 10 minutes, and the few times I got stuck, google was there to help. I don't understand what's so difficult about shuffling around a few folders, tbh.
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sarah taylor
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:58 am

I believe that that's simply not true. I'm a console gamer, but my friend lent me his PC copy so I could see what mods are like. Maybe I'm super smart for a console gamer, maybe all the mods I chose happened to be simple ones, but the longest I spent trying to install a mod was 10 minutes, and the few times I got stuck, google was there to help. I don't understand what's so difficult about shuffling around a few folders, tbh.

That's because there is nothing hard about shuffling around a few folders. At least if you know how to do that which some people may not even be able to do. But that is the tip of the iceberg when it comes to modding
there's:
1.managing conflicts which can be caused by an enormous amount of things some of which can only be managed through use of third party tools like the bashed patch in wrye bash like leveled lists, race edits etc(not to mention some people have trouble even getting wrye bash to work) some might not even be noticeable like scripts interfering with each other.
2. managing overlapping/overwriting resouces which can be done manually but it's tedious work and is way more effective through a third party mod manager such as BAIN (more flexible with annealing but more complex) or OBMM (easy to use but just overwrites files or doesn't)
3. archive invalidation (which is made easy through use of third party tools)
4. making sure you have all of a mods requirements, be it another mod or something like obse or obse extension (plus you have to keep them up to date and some mods only work with a certain version of obse meanig you have to research a bit too.
5. Making sure the mods you're using will work on your system without it turning into a slideshow
6. Dirty edits, which can be done accidentally by a modder or even by the CS itself and often goes unnoticed by the modder and then users and then they're wondering why the game keeps crashing when there shouldn't even be a conflict. And guess what? The easiest way to fix the was dadadada a third party application!

And all that's just what I can come up with off the top of my head.

So yeah there's a bit more too it than playing with folders as you trivialize it as. I'd like to see the face of a person with no knowledge of mods console or PC user try and install and use a 250 mod setup including FCOM or even OOO or MMM. the sheer number of people who know what they're doing and still have problems using mods should be enough to tell you it's nothing so simple as shuffling a few folders and voila you have a modded setup. Some mods might be as simple as that but only minor mods and even they can cause problems if you don't know what you're doing.

You must have not used anything other than very simple mods and don't know anything about mods whatsoever or you wouldn't have said what you did.

To keep this on topic I'm wondering how Bethesda would juggle all that considering they didn't do most of it themselves even on the platform that had mods the whole time they gave us the CS and said have fun. Anything else was mostly handled by third party tools. If they are going to have mods they're going to be very very simple like changing armor stats or adding a quest or house and even those have potential to cause problems. I just can't see it working out. Maybe I will be surprised though, who knows it's all speculation?
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maria Dwyer
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:16 am

I think saying that bringing mods to consoles would invalidate the advantages of PC is a ridiculous thing to say - mods are the icing on the cake, but the real advantages are elsewhere.


Yeah all our advantages like DX 11 support, lovingly built UI's specifically for the PC, incredible multi-core optimizations, superior RAM utilizations, greatly increased texture qualities, etc.

Oh wait.... :biggrin:
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gary lee
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:22 am

You cannot create higher res things with the creation kit, how hard is it to understand? Because if it was possible, bethesda would be doing it. The selfish part of PC gamers who are totally against the whole idea of consoles getting mods is pathetically selfish.

That " "-thing of your is totally rubbish, it not about buying the PC version of the game, it's about buying a PC, getting space for it in your house, know how to use it and such. Thus, PC gamers who don't want mods to get to consoles are simply selfish players who want to keep that to themselves because they somehow feel they are above consoles because they know how to make mods. That is a deeply philosophical and psycologial way of looking at those who don't want mods for consoles. Everyone is not like that, obviously, even if they don't want mods for consoles.


Why should PC gamers have to make mods for console gamers; make your own if you cant not a pc gamers problem, why should our game suffer because of the limits of your platform. Havent we already suffered enough because of console platform limitations and a console focused industry who doesn't demand complexity in there games, or dedicated servers, or mod tools. Take the issue up with bethesda and ask them why they dont release the kit for consoles. Not my problem.
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Justin Bywater
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:07 am

I'm sure that Beth could do it. But Microsoft wouldn't. And if Microsoft can't have it, then Sony can't either.

The unfortunate reality of the games industry today.
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Vicki Blondie
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:59 am

Yeah all our advantages like DX 11 support, lovingly built UI's specifically for the PC, incredible multi-core optimizations, superior RAM utilizations, greatly increased texture qualities, etc.

Oh wait.... :biggrin:


This...

doubts skyrim has a 64bit exe.
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Sweets Sweets
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:06 pm

This...

doubts skyrim has a 64bit exe.


Haha....

Heck I'll be happy if the game will use more than 2GB of RAM without having to hack the exe. Course I'm not holding my breath.
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stephanie eastwood
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:57 am

I really do hope this happens.
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Terry
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:21 am

Most modern consoles have a USB port or the like... why not work something out with Microsoft to allow mods for the XBox 360 version of Skyrim to be loaded off of jump drive? Seems like the most straight forward way to pull it off (i.e. treat the plugged in drive as part of the Data directory sort of thing).

Not that it's likely to happen, and the same issue about people breaking their game with too many mods etc. would come up...
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Davorah Katz
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:28 am

Most modern consoles have a USB port or the like... why not work something out with Microsoft to allow mods for the XBox 360 version of Skyrim to be loaded off of jump drive? Seems like the most straight forward way to pull it off (i.e. treat the plugged in drive as part of the Data directory sort of thing).

Not that it's likely to happen, and the same issue about people breaking their game with too many mods etc. would come up...

I posted why that would be unlikely a page or two back if you care to read it.
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Jason White
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:04 am

The only way this is ever going to happen is if Bethesda makes it happen. They won't be able to just give permission to do it. A service with regulations and limits will have to be imposed and since that is the case then all the fodder about what can work and how is right out the window. Anything that makes it to the console from the PC community will have to pass through that system so all this psychobabble is pointless.
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Scotties Hottie
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:01 am

I don't understand why people are even getting their hopes up in the slightest about this. It's not going to happen.

^

This

Whether it's "fair" or not... I have plenty of titles I'd rather play on a console, TES games just aren't one of them. This is one major reason.
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Stat Wrecker
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:25 am

Even IF this ever worked to some degree, I wouldn't use the mods, anyway, so it really is a non-issue, for me. :shrug:
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quinnnn
 
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Post » Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:46 pm

90 percent???

That's awful!
I'll admit that I doubt that statement, but I don't pay attention to statistics anyway. Maybe someone who does follow the statistics might comment on this? Is the ratio PC/consoles really 1/9?
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Ricky Rayner
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:52 am

Is the ratio PC/consoles really 1/9?


Everything points to no. 550k sales on PC counting digital + boxed for Oblivion is simply impossible..especially considering the Steam sales/bundles.
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Matt Gammond
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:33 am

I don't get it, what is the creation kit?
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c.o.s.m.o
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:36 am

They do?

Bahahahaha :lmao:

You do realise then we'll have all the console people conplaining they then cant use the cool mods that require things like Script Extenders, or that they will have limited load order tools. Then they will complain they cant actually make mods (the creation kit will stay as a PC only tool).

I agree it's a good idea to let them get mods......but it certainly isnt going to stop the whining.
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Lynne Hinton
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:12 am

I never really understood the whole console war thing. I'm a Bethesda fan, and a fan of their amazing games. It just seems strange (to me) to generalize and stereotype fellow fans of ES, or any game based on the system they choose to enjoy the game on.
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Skivs
 
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