[Claire Mclaughlin]

i would love to see this because my computer would can only run OB in min detail

[Rob]

Why should PC gamers have to make mods for console gamers; make your own if you cant not a pc gamers problem, why should our game suffer because of the limits of your platform. Havent we already suffered enough because of console platform limitations and a console focused industry who doesn't demand complexity in there games, or dedicated servers, or mod tools. Take the issue up with bethesda and ask them why they dont release the kit for consoles. Not my problem.

Why would you use the creation kit in the first place then? You cannot create better stuff with the CT than bethesda, so if you use it, then it won't have better quality. Sure if you then finish it with a third party tool or other thing into higher res, sure that works, but you still have that ready mod done with the creation kit which could then be put straight to PS3 or Xbox360.

[Greg Cavaliere]

You cannot create better stuff with the CT than bethesda, so if you use it, then it won't have better quality.

Woah woah woah slow down there man that's not true at all.
And creation kit abbreviated would be CK not CT no?

And mods arent "finished" with third party tools like OBSE. Many couldnt even be created at all without them. So no they wouldn't be ready for console use if they required them to be created they would need OBSE to run. And Neither Microsoft or sony are about to let third party software run freely on their consoles.

I take it you don't know much about modding?

[Samantha Mitchell]

Thought I'd add my two cents here. I think it's funny that so many folks see no chance of this happening and saying Microsoft and Sony would be so against this idea. Sure, there are going to be hoops to jump through that don't exist for PC modders, but there's already a precedent for user developed content on consoles, the groundwork started back when the 360 and PS3 released; all the parties involved likely just need to agree on the hoops. Mods keep a game running years past its prime, that's something they can all take to the bank and that means it's going to happen sooner or later.

For example, back in 2006, Microsoft announced they were establishing the Creator's Club, a club for folks who (for a paid membership hoop) would have the development tools needed to bring user developed content to the XBox 360. From Microsoft Rep in 2006:

"By unlocking retail Xbox 360 consoles for community-created games, we are ushering in a new era of cross-platform games based on the XNA platform. We are looking forward to the day when all the resulting talent-sharing and creativity transforms into a thriving community of user-created games on Xbox 360."

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb976089.aspx

http://create.msdn.com/en-US/

Likewise, in 2007 Sony took their first tentative steps into user content with Epic Games to get the user made content made on the Unreal Editor piped to the PS3. Epic Games VP was quoted in 2007 discussing user content for T3:

When they embrace user-created content, that's what it means to be an open system. That's why we're on PlayStation 3 first—because they are embracing user-created content. It's not just moving the deck chairs around the boat. They are embracing real art

http://www.psxextreme.com/ps3-news/2238.html

To date, no, there is no perfect user content share system for consoles and I'm not saying that (don't misquote me troll, I see you over there), but user made content on consoles is coming, no debate really. Mods take a game with a one year shelf life and give it six, Six years of new players wanting to buy the game just for the extra content and we all know there's no end to console gamers asking for mods. In the end, it may cost modders dearly to get their content on a console, signing content agreements, paying memberships fees, toeing the line as it were, but maybe this means in the future, we'll also see some small financial kickback for our independent development like iPhone App devs. If Todd Howard says it's on the table at least, that should mean something in of itself. :foodndrink:

[Claire]

Woah woah woah slow down there man that's not true at all.
And creation kit abbreviated would be CK not CT no?

And mods arent "finished" with third party tools like OBSE. Many couldnt even be created at all without them. So no they wouldn't be ready for console use ifthey required them they would need OBSE to run. And Neither Microsoft or sony are about to let third party software run freely on their consoles.

I take it you don't know much about modding?

Yeah I meant CK not CT

But seriosuly, have ANY of you read the article? Did you understand what it said? Stuff created with the CK can be put into use on the PS3 and Xbox360. OB didn't have a creation kit, right? I'm using basic logic here, whereas you use past experience from modding a 5 year old game in a different way.

[Trish]

Yeah I meant CK not CT

But seriosuly, have ANY of you read the article? Did you understand what it said? Stuff created with the CK can be put into use on the PS3 and Xbox360. OB didn't have a creation kit, right? I'm using basic logic here, whereas you use past experience from modding a 5 year old game in a different way.

Yes oblivion had a creation kit (it was called construction set though but it's the same thing)
So your point about it being done in a different way is wrong and your logic is very basic be aide you've demonstrated a very large lack of knowledge as to how mods work, maybe not comment on something you know little about because you're spreading wrong information.

I agree stuff created with the kit would be able to be used on consoles but not if it requires third party tools to run regardless of whether it was created in the CK. obse mods are a good example because they are created in the CS also but they use script functions not provided in the CS but provided by obse if you don't have obse they have script functions that don't exist and therefore don't work.

There's other problems I got into detail on (somewhat) on the previous why it would be hard to have mods back a page give it a read and you might gain a better understanding why it would be difficult.

The main problem is that third party tools are necessary to making mods as functional (not just in creating them) as they are and they simply won't be available on a console because there is no way Microsoft and Sony are about to let third party software run on their consoles.

I dont disagree they are possible, but functional is another thing. And I'm not against it if im coming across that way I just see many many difficulties in pulling it off.

[Rachael Williams]

""We'd like to see it happen," he said. "Because it works, it's how we made the game. I think it's something really cool about what we do, but 90% of our audience is on the consoles, so 90% of our audience can't even see this thing. So if we can solve that we'd like to."

90%? :blink: I didn't know it was that high. Consoles are really that much more popular? even after all this time without a next gen of consoles? That has to be exaggerated some.

[yessenia hermosillo]

Yeah I meant CK not CT

But seriosuly, have ANY of you read the article? Did you understand what it said? Stuff created with the CK can be put into use on the PS3 and Xbox360. OB didn't have a creation kit, right? I'm using basic logic here, whereas you use past experience from modding a 5 year old game in a different way.

Right, there's clearly a fairly critical misunderstanding here.
Assuming skyrim functions like oblivion did, then "Skyrim.exe", "Skyrim for xbox 360" and "Skyrim for PS3" won't contain any of the game data, they'll be the engine and the ability to load content. That content will be contained in "Skyrim.esm", which will be identical across platforms, and "Skyrim.esm" was created with the creation kit. The data loading itself is inherently cross-platform capable, because it's not stored in any platform specific format.

However, if I take my copy of the Creation Kit, I can, for example, fill a room with an awful lot of clutter, or add 60 new NPCs to a city, and then save this as a mod - which because of the inherently cross platform nature of the beast, will run on PC, 360, and PS3. However, on 360 and PS3 it may simply not load due to memory constraints (I have very little idea how memory management is handled in Oblivion, so don't know whether it uses a paging system, simply stops loading, crashes, or what), and certainly won't run at a high framerate. *That* is what we mean when we say "The consoles can't run it" - they can try and load it, certainly, but you will not get acceptable performance. The consoles literally can't run mods using third party tools, but they effectively can't run all but the most simple mods.

[Devils Cheek]

I agree stuff created with the kit would be able to be used on consoles but not if it requires third party tools to run regardless of whether it was created in the CK. obse mods are a good example because they are created in the CS also but they use script functions not provided in the CS but provided by obse if you don't have obse they have script functions that don't exist and therefore don't work.
There's other problems I got into detail on (somewhat) on the previous why it would be hard to have mods back a page give it a read and you might gain a better understanding why it would be difficult.
The main problem is that third party tools are necessary to making mods as functional (not just in creating them) as they are and they simply won't be available on a console because there is no way Microsoft and Sony are about to let third party software run on their consoles.
I dont disagree they are possible, but functional is another thing. And I'm not against it if im coming across that way I just see many many difficulties in pulling it off.

So let me get this straight, what your saying is that the majority of mods require third party software and because of that modding on the console is out of the question? I will bet you any amount of money that i could go and search the Nexus for mods that would work on the consoles and come up with a list of well over 2000 mods that are under 5mb, contain only a plugin file and either add a ton of content and/or dramatically alter gameplay. Should these mods be off limits to console users because you use FCOM and Qarls TP3?

Right, there's clearly a fairly critical misunderstanding here.
Assuming skyrim functions like oblivion did, then "Skyrim.exe", "Skyrim for xbox 360" and "Skyrim for PS3" won't contain any of the game data, they'll be the engine and the ability to load content. That content will be contained in "Skyrim.esm", which will be identical across platforms, and "Skyrim.esm" was created with the creation kit. The data loading itself is inherently cross-platform capable, because it's not stored in any platform specific format.

However, if I take my copy of the Creation Kit, I can, for example, fill a room with an awful lot of clutter, or add 60 new NPCs to a city, and then save this as a mod - which because of the inherently cross platform nature of the beast, will run on PC, 360, and PS3. However, on 360 and PS3 it may simply not load due to memory constraints (I have very little idea how memory management is handled in Oblivion, so don't know whether it uses a paging system, simply stops loading, crashes, or what), and certainly won't run at a high framerate. *That* is what we mean when we say "The consoles can't run it" - they can try and load it, certainly, but you will not get acceptable performance. The consoles literally can't run mods using third party tools, but they effectively can't run all but the most simple mods.

By that logic the PC can't run it either because i can make a mod that cripples even my massive system. My car will do 145mph too, so should i park it and never drive it again because i'm capable of breaking the law with it?

[Emily Rose]

So let me get this straight, what your saying is that the majority of mods require third party software and because of that modding on the console is out of the question?

No I never once said that, actually quite the opposite. Actually read before posting. Otherwise you simply didn't understand what I was saying. Or maybe you're twisting my words on purpose because you can't fathom a problem with trying to do it because of some misplaced pride in a console.

I also recommend reading my post on the last page which explains more which I also recommended doing in that post as you apparently missed that and also the last paragraph of the post you quoted. If you still come to the same conclusion you don't understand what I'm saying or your twisting my words on purpose.

[Lavender Brown]

I'd actually be a little heart broken if this were to happen. One of the sole reasons the PC market is so attractive is the fact that Beth always includes mod support with their releases. Since the TES series and the Fallout series have hardly even fully utilized the high end, enthusiast-level hardware many PC players buy, one of the main things separating the PC from the consoles is the fact that there is a massive modding community. On a PR side, I don't see this being a very affective move to sustaining their PC market share. Why would anyone be swayed into building a $1000 PC if the benefits of doing so are the same as buying a $199 console?

:brokencomputer:

That's my 2 cents.

That svcks for you PC users.....I guess....

[Music Show]

That svcks for you PC users.....I guess....

Well PC users would still technically have access to some mods that consoles couldn't run so I guess there would still be a draw there but I admit it isn't as strong because its not exclusive and not everyone likes to use those types of mods.

Edit: huzzah I just realized I'm now a disciple

[Mark Churchman]

Thought I'd add my two cents here. I think it's funny that so many folks see no chance of this happening and saying Microsoft and Sony would be so against this idea. Sure, there are going to be hoops to jump through that don't exist for PC modders, but there's already a precedent for user developed content on consoles, the groundwork started back when the 360 and PS3 released; all the parties involved likely just need to agree on the hoops. Mods keep a game running years past its prime, that's something they can all take to the bank and that means it's going to happen sooner or later.

For example, back in 2006, Microsoft announced they were establishing the Creator's Club, a club for folks who (for a paid membership hoop) would have the development tools needed to bring user developed content to the XBox 360. From Microsoft Rep in 2006:



http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb976089.aspx

http://create.msdn.com/en-US/

Likewise, in 2007 Sony took their first tentative steps into user content with Epic Games to get the user made content made on the Unreal Editor piped to the PS3. Epic Games VP was quoted in 2007 discussing user content for T3:



http://www.psxextreme.com/ps3-news/2238.html

To date, no, there is no perfect user content share system for consoles and I'm not saying that (don't misquote me troll, I see you over there), but user made content on consoles is coming, no debate really. Mods take a game with a one year shelf life and give it six, Six years of new players wanting to buy the game just for the extra content and we all know there's no end to console gamers asking for mods. In the end, it may cost modders dearly to get their content on a console, signing content agreements, paying memberships fees, toeing the line as it were, but maybe this means in the future, we'll also see some small financial kickback for our independent development like iPhone App devs. If Todd Howard says it's on the table at least, that should mean something in of itself. :foodndrink:

That was a very interesting post, thanks It's good to read that Sony and Microsoft aren't as opposed to fan made content as people say they are Also, I think (hope) that if Bethesda is able to come to an agreement with either one of these companies, then the other one won't want to be left out and will make more efforts to find some common ground. I hope.
What I'm more curious about is the platform that would be used to make mods available to console players. Would we (modders) have to submit our mods to Bethesda and/or Sony/Microsoft to get them approved and uploaded to some specific platform? Would our mods be "rated"? Would there be a size limit? And how free would hosting be on this platform?

[Alex Vincent]

That svcks for you PC users.....I guess....

Well PC users would still technically have access to some mods that consoles couldn't run so I guess there would still be a draw there but I admit it isn't as strong because its not exclusive and not everyone likes to use those types of mods.

Edit: huzzah I just realized I'm now a disciple

Well it may reduce the number of people getting the game for PC but this isn't a threat for future games not being ported on pc, I think. After all, no matter how small the percentage of pc players is, they'll still need to release their games on pc to keep a modding community, since we can't make new models and textures on consoles. I suppose this move to make mods available to consoles would allow bethesda to feature them more prominently when it comes to promoting games, so I don't think it's a threat to anyone.

If any of that makes sense :S


edit: whoops double post, sorry I thought I was editing my previous message

[Rusty Billiot]

That svcks for you PC users.....I guess....

That svcks it for all. I definitely say NO to console modding. The console version of Skyrim is already dumbed down for the sake of consoles. And now we'll see dumbed down mods as well, made to enlarge the user count who'd use them, and sacrificing quality in turn? Don't get me wrong anyone, I'd love to see a mod being played and enjoyed by as much people as it could, but still having to dumb it down in order to do so leaves a bitter taste.

Besides, how the Skyrim-equivalent of utilities like TES4LODGen, Wrye Bash, Oblivion Mod Manager, and OBSE will find their way into consoles? And what happens if they manage to screw the console up? (surely they won't appear on consoles, and console users will be denied of the most advanced mods. Or even worse, make modders decide not to use advanced features, thus handicapping the whole modding community).

I pray Sony/Microsoft denies or forgets that petition, if not I believe that the Skyrim modding community won't be by far as good as the Morrowind/Oblivion' one is.

[Roberto Gaeta]

Well it may reduce the number of people getting the game for PC but this isn't a threat for future games not being ported on pc, I think. After all, no matter how small the percentage of pc players is, they'll still need to release their games on pc to keep a modding community, since we can't make new models and textures on consoles. I suppose this move to make mods available to consoles would allow bethesda to feature them more prominently when it comes to promoting games, so I don't think it's a threat to anyone.

If any of that makes sense :S


edit: whoops double post, sorry I thought I was editing my previous message

I completely agree that mods on consoles will not spell the end of TES on PC at all.

Of course that doesnt blind me to the fact that to have mods on consoles there is much work to be done on bethesdas part and microsofts/sonys (see my last few posts unless you already understand all that)

[Laura Ellaby]

That svcks it for all. I definitely say NO to console modding. The console version of Skyrim is already dumbed down for the sake of consoles. And now we'll see dumbed down mods as well, made to enlarge the user count who'd use them, and sacrificing quality in turn? Don't get me wrong anyone, I'd love to see a mod being played and enjoyed by as much people as it could, but still having to dumb it down in order to do so leaves a bitter taste.

Besides, how the Skyrim-equivalent of utilities like TES4LODGen, Wrye Bash, Oblivion Mod Manager, and OBSE will find their way into consoles? And what happens if they manage to screw the console up? (surely they won't appear on consoles, and console users will be denied of the most advanced mods. Or even worse, make modders decide not to use advanced features, thus handicapping the whole modding community).

I pray Sony/Microsoft denies or forgets that petition, if not I believe that the Skyrim modding community won't be by far as good as the Morrowind/Oblivion' one is.

I don't see why modders would have to "dumb down" their mods for the sake of console users. Console users are not more stupid than pc users, I think it's wrong (and insulting) to assume that. Yes, the games have become more "mainstream" with recent games, whether it's good or bad is not the point of this discussion. No, it doesn't mean that modders will have to make their mods mainstream as well.
I do agree that third party tools not available for consoles would be the main restriction, but frankly I doubt most people bother with them, and even if they find their way to Skyrim they'll just be available for pc users, and console players will just have to use mods that do not require them (like 90% of all the mods). We are talking mainly of simple mods here, ie new hairs, weapons, armors and maybe simple quests and dungeons. Is that so wrong to make all this available to console players? Are they going to "dumb them down" just because they can get their hands on them? I don't think so.

edit: I know you're not saying that console players are more stupid than pc users, it's just that your post could be understood like that.

I completely agree that mods on consoles will not spell the end of TES on PC at all.

Of course that doesnt blind me to the fact that to have mods on consoles there is much work to be done on bethesdas part and microsofts/sonys (see my last few posts unless you already understand all that)

I agree, it's probably not going to be very simple, I'll go read your last posts now

[Amelia Pritchard]

I agree, it's probably not going to be very simple, I'll go read your last posts now

Feel free to point out any errors or points you disagree with. I don't mind being proven wrong but so far the only challenge to what I've said seems to have been uneducated comments/fanboyism.

[cutiecute]

No I never once said that, actually quite the opposite. Actually read before posting. Otherwise you simply didn't understand what I was saying.

I'm not twisting anything, that was a question, not a statement. So what exactly are you saying? Many mods will work just fine on the console. Do you disagree?

Or maybe you're twisting my words on purpose because you can't fathom a problem with trying to do it because of some misplaced pride in a console.

You bark at me to read your post yet you make this assumption without reading mine. If you had you'd know i'm a PC and i don't have any pride in a console. I just happen to be a modder and know well what mods are capable of running on the console.

I also recommend reading my post on the last page which explains more which I also recommended doing in that post as you apparently missed that and also the last paragraph of the post you quoted. If you still come to the same conclusion you don't understand what I'm saying or your twisting my words on purpose.

I'm quite irritated at all the people talking smack on the idea of mods on consoles and presenting every single system that obviously wouldn't work on the console as evidence of how it can't work at all and by reading your posts I thought perhaps you were one of them and asked you a question trying ascertain your true position which is not exactly clear in your posts but this...

because of some misplaced pride in a console

...tells me all i need to know. You probably are in the group that skirts the technical possibilities and concentrates on the impossibilities in order to devalue mods on consoles which you believe will some how diminish modding on the PC. That's how i see it, so please enlighten me as to your position without flaming me as you nearly did previously.

[hannaH]

Feel free to point out any errors or points you disagree with. I don't mind being proven wrong but so far the only challenge to what I've said seems to have been uneducated comments/fanboyism.

I find http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1181517-bethesda-wants-to-bring-mods-to-consoles-thread-3/page__st__100__p__17516223#entry17516223 very detailed, and I tend to agree with you overall. I think, however, that one of the major difficulties for Oblivion mod users, mod conflicts, could be drastically reduced for Skyrim if Bethesda are careful about that. For instance, haircuts and races did not conflict at all in Morrowind, you could have many hair mods and race plugins without having to worry about conflicts. If they make mods available for console users, maybe Bethesda will pay attention to their code so that we don't have to worry about that. I certainly hope they will make some effort to get rid of conflicts of this kind.

[Stay-C]

By that logic the PC can't run it either because i can make a mod that cripples even my massive system. My car will do 145mph too, so should i park it and never drive it again because i'm capable of breaking the law with it?

No, because the power gap between running the game at 60fps and running it not at 60fps ranges from "nothing", giving you very little addition, like a console, to "huge", giving you an awful lot. The main limitation (as normal) is the RAM, if you want to add anything at all it's going to need a home in RAM, and neither console is going to leave any RAM free. That's the point, a fixed platform can use all available hardware all the time, but that design is inherently incompatible with modding.

EDIT: I have no personal wish to deny modding to consoles - I think to say that, even in a magical land of fairies where consoles could run mods acceptably, PC gaming would suffer because of this is ridiculous. I'm not a PC gamer because of mods, and I don't know many people who are, the advantages are legion, and moddability is one of those - a single game not being moddable is no more going to spell the death of the medium than a new generation of consoles. PC gaming has been dying for so long it's actually growing year-on-year, so either all of those PC game sales are Oblivion, or it's a perfectly happy platform.

Additionally, because modders aren't doing their thing for money, there's very little incentive to cut down their ideas to fit on a console. To say that console modding would spell the end of modifications is just as nonsensical as to say it will kill PC gaming.

[Adrian Morales]

I don't see why modders would have to "dumb down" their mods for the sake of console users.

Really? How many of the Skyrim-equivalent of your "Crimson Wire" hi-res clothing mod could consoles handle before collapsing? And how much time would take for console users to continuously ask for low res versions?

Console users are not more stupid than pc users, I think it's wrong (and insulting) to assume that.

I wasn't assuming that. I'm fully aware of that fact. What I say is that consoles lack by far of the manageability and power of the PC's, and both things are a burden for development. Even game devs themselves say that.

I do agree that third party tools not available for consoles would be the main restriction, but frankly I doubt most people bother with them, and even if they find their way to Skyrim they'll just be available for pc users, and console players will just have to use mods that do not require them (like 90% of all the mods). We are talking mainly of simple mods here, ie new hairs, weapons, armors and maybe simple quests and dungeons. Is that so wrong to make all this available to console players? Are they going to "dumb them down" just because they can get their hands on them? I don't think so.

I'd say nearly every Oblivion mod user (even newbies) uses Oblivion Mod Manager. Or Wrye Bash. OBSE is even easier, as it's only "install-and-run". If people don't bother with them I'd say it's mostly because they wouldn't know they exist, not because "I know, but they're too difficult to use".

And I do think so, because of what I've said. Graphically (models/textures) it's already guaranteed that mods MUST be dumbed down in order for consoles to move them. And technically, too (lack of future-proof and/or complex techniques). And also, don't forget that consoles only have 512 mb's of RAM, so forget mods that adds too much content at once, unless Skyrim engine is REALLY GOOD at memory management.

Maybe I could be wrong with my statements, but for now I really don't like it.

edit: I know you're not saying that console players are more stupid than pc users, it's just that your post could be understood like that

Hope this message clears it up

[Stefanny Cardona]

Really? How many of the Skyrim-equivalent of your "Crimson Wire" hi-res clothing mod could consoles handle before collapsing? And how much time would take for console users to continuously ask for low res versions?

and? what's stopping the modder from doing two versions of the same mod? or maybe he/she doesn't do it at all, or maybe his/her mods are only made with the the pc version in mind, maybe the reverse is also possible. there's all kind of possibilities and in none of them i see any where the pc community loses anything when it comes to mod quality.

[Chris Cross Cabaret Man]

and? what's stopping the modder from doing two versions of the same mod?

Double the work, having to create the mod at first, then dumb it down, if not worse (to create the dumbed down version only).

As I said, and I repeat (not to appear like a selfish elitist), if it were for me I'd love for mods to be spread as much as they can. I'm not "jealous" of losing the "PC exclusivity", as I'll always be a PC user. But it REALLY would make me sad to lose hi-quality content due to console limitations, as it has happened with PC games dumbed down due to consoles.

or maybe he/she doesn't do it at all

And you'd be happy with that?

or maybe his/her mods are only made with the the pc version in mind, maybe the reverse is also possible. there's all kind of possibilities and in none of them i see any where the pc community loses anything when it comes to mod quality.

Possibilities which means more work for the modding community. Work that not all modders (understandably) are willing to do.

[Trent Theriot]

I'm not twisting anything, that was a question, not a statement. So what exactly are you saying? Many mods will work just fine on the console. Do you disagree?

*no if you actually READ my post you will see that i state in the exact words "I don't disagree that mods are possible on consoles"'sheesh and yet you wonder why I'm "barking" at you to read.

You bark at me to read your post yet you make this assumption without reading mine. If you had you'd know i'm a PC and i don't have any pride in a console. I just happen to be a modder and know well what mods are capable of running on the console.

*if you understood and we wouldn't be having this conversation. I did read your post and you claimed I said mods aren't possible on console without third party programs when I did not state anything of the sort. I said mods on console would be difficult to maintain in funtionality without them. If you followed my recommendation on reading my post on the previous page you would understand that. You clearly didn't. If you are a modder than why are you ignoring the obvious problems associated with modding? Do you have examples of your mods? Because I find it doubtful although I could be wrong. But, simply because skyrim is a new game doesn't simply mean conflicts are suddenly not going to happen anymore and capability to run mods is not the entire issue which you would understand if you read what I'm saying.*

I'm quite irritated at all the people talking smack on the idea of mods on consoles and presenting every single system that obviously wouldn't work on the console as evidence of how it can't work at all and by reading your posts I thought perhaps you were one of them and asked you a question trying ascertain your true position which is not exactly clear in your posts but this...

*again i wasn't talking smack about it in any way. If I was please point it out and I shall remove it. My position is quite clear. I'll restate it if it isn't so to you I AM NOT AGAINST CONSOLE MODS BUT I AM NOT BLIND TO THE FACT THAT THERE ARE PROBLEMS THAT HAVE TO BE DEALT WITH TO MAKE IT POSSIBLE. better?*

...tells me all i need to know. You probably are in the group that skirts the technical possibilities and concentrates on the impossibilities in order to devalue mods on consoles which you believe will some how diminish modding on the PC. That's how i see it, so please enlighten me as to your position without flaming me as you nearly did previously.

*that only applies if you were commenting out of misplaced pride in a console. I didn't specifially state that as the reason if you didn't notice, which you clearly didn't again read before making a comment. It's not flaming you if it didn't apply and if it doesn't as you say then why are you worked up over it? Again I'm not devaluing mods because it diminishes mods on PC where did I even say that? Oh wait I didn't, you made it up because A.I'm not B.all my posts indicate otherwise. You are making it up completely look at the previous posts. you are portraying me as some sort of PC elitist who doesn't want console mods despite my saying otherwise. Simply because I'm not blind to the obvious problems that I can discern doesn't make it so.*

I also still haven't seen anything that refutes what I have brought up about the problems that would arise if there were console mods, you are simply flaming me. Noticing a problem does not equate to not wanting it. if you continue to flame me I'll simply report you because I'm not going to argue with a troll. Some of us are truly to have a rational discussion.

Edit: sorry for all the edits but it's hard to make a long coherent post when i can't see everything I'm typing cuz I'm using an iPod (it also doesn't give me options for bold and such I have to dl that manually so it takes a while)