I think perks will define our character's uniqueness much much more than attributes ever could do.
You're partly right about inherent strengths and such through birthsigns, but the difference it actually and factually make is minimal, and if they would make birthsigns more powerful to give them a bigger meaning, it would really be problematic and make the character do big choices in the very beginning of the game, with no turning back and without yet actually have played to see what path he/she wishes to focus on.

However, as much as we know, we might get to choose a basic set of health, stamina and magicka (thus the effects of the attributes) from the start. If we don't get to do that, that's fine, since we level up quickly at the start anyway.
We still have race differences. I'm guessing gender differences will be there slightly too. Class is still present, but in a much much more specificied and unique form, which we get to develop through the actual game. Birthsigns... well, they're minor effects are gone, but their meaning is transfered into the constellation menu.

I think Bethesda has made a good choice of these things. To me, it makes so much more sense and is not as messy as before and at the same time allows us to be more unique and to define our players more throughout the game, without having to worry of making decisions the first minutes that will forever affect our player (and which we might regret later once we actually understand what those decisions mean).

To the OP: I couldn't/didn't want to read the whole thread, Its pointless, it seems you post just for attention seeking purposes, if you have a problem with the game then just don't buy it, you really and honestly think your opinion is going to change anything? is Todd Howard and team redesign the game because of you?
Don't like it, don't buy it.
I, for myself, will be enjoyng as much as I can Tes 5, like many million others.

There is a limit, it's just different.

Not lost, gone or away, different.

haha bullzzzzzzzz eye

Pardon my ignorance but when was it stated that birth signs are out?

What I thought of as soon as I thought your post

On topic, I think what some people need to realise is that, while classes and attributes and what have you have been removed, their EFFECTS have not nessecarily gone, just under another name. I'm sure there will still be a stat or something that affects encumberence and melee damage, another one for Magicka and so forth. Birthsigns never really did much in the long term, as they were all attribute bonuses or powers that could be easily made up for in the late game, and surpassed is most cases of the powers.

The character build at the BEGINNING of the game is gone . . . THAT feature which I feel was one of the BEST features in TES was removed.

Fast leveling and Perks and automatic skill point distribution is not nearly the same . . . it is a totally different way to play TES.

It is a MUCH more simplified system, which will prevent me from having a unique character at the BEGINNING of the game.

i think skyrims take on character creation is interesting to say the least you gradually come into your role as an archer a mage a fighter or any other class you can make....the hard way

... And why does that matter so much? What matters more is how much you can define your character throughout the entire game imo; and since you level up fast, that "uniqueness" and starts very early, ALMOST at the beginning of the game.

I'd say that the grand uniqueness and how much you can define your character throughout the rest of the game (200-600 hours), without having to worry of making decisions the first minutes that will forever affect our player (and which we might regret later once we actually understand what those decisions mean), values MUCH higher than to have a unique character in the first 15-30 minutes of the game.

The reason I mentioned 15-30 minutes is because that's assumable for what it takes for us to level up the first time and get a taste of different ways of doing things.

I don't share any of the OP's concerns. All the changes looks good, I think.

I have a concern nagging me in the back of the head though.

To me it looks like this;

Morrowind: Deep and interesting world with lots of replayability.
Oblivion: Shallow and uninteresting world, but still a lot of replayability.
Fallout 3: Deep and interesting world with no replayability. (I don't find it fun to play again.)

Worst case scenario, it's an uninteresting world with no replayability. (That I don't find it fun to play again.)
Best case scenario, it's a deep and interesting world with lots of replayability.

I hope my worries are unfounded.

I could go on and on how the first levels always felt the same no matter how unique character you created, and the real differences would only show up later on... but I would be wasting my breath.

But going on how this will be so simple/bad/horrible/unRPGlike/bland is just baseless...

I agree with everything but Fallout 3, I do think there is some replayability value out of the game but not on the level of an Elder Scrolls game. I hope for the best case scenario too and it definitely sounds like we will have a bunch of reasons for multiple replayability which I contribute to the 10 races.

...and perks.

To me it sounds like tons and tons of replayability. More than ever
Perks + Radiant Story + more unique races + really detailed world so there's much of us to explore and see + it is also confirmed to be more hidden stuff in the world.

I don't see the problem. If i use a sword... and I get better at a sword by using it... what's the difference between that and using a sword, then levelling up, the clicking a + a few times and getting better at using it?

*sigh* :facepalm: I'd love to get that link where you people are getting the notion that Attributes are running under the hood when Todd didnt say squat of anything even remotely similar to that, he said H/M/S and skills/perks are supposed to do what attributes did, now think hard for a moment.


He got rid of Attributes because in his/their mindset people only raised Attributes for boosts to Skills/Health/Magika/Fatigue so in their flawless judgement, "removed the Middleman" so that everything is effected Direclty by the player, How clicking a box to raise H/M/S and clicking Perks is more Organic Is BEYOND -------ing ME

its not that we are calling foul on something we've never experienced yet, he gave straightforward information about it if there was anything more behind hit, he like factions/Spell combo's etc etc would have said theres more, but we aren't talking about it yet, he never said anything is running under the hood/ Raci al perks / Perks that effected H/M/S no, he said H/M/S and perks are supposed to do what perks did...and "that they are in there somewhere" like really? really? Movement speed and character mobility seems to have taken a crap because their skills are out as well and you don't get 8 way Directional movement effects from raising stamina, it doesnt even take critical or overthinking to see what he said because he clearly said it, he didnt hint at anything, he didnt say Raising Health also raises this and that Or that raising stamina raises jump speed/ run sped and allowed you to dodge, no nothing like that Bethesda or those relevant to the particular matter -knew- it would cause a shiostorm hence the "hold on now but why did you Raise intelligence? to raise your magicka right? well now you do that directly -FULL STOP- nothing more nothing less ok?


and some of you people don't see a problem with this?


again I'd love a link where he said H/M/S effects more than H/M/S that Attributes are under the hood and all these other Soothsayer examples people are giving despite the clear statements he made with no room for getting it mixed up

So there were other things attributes did that skills/health/magicka/fatigue didn't?

Like what?
And which of these can't be put into perks, under any other skill?

Strenght


There are 1handers perks, underneath one handers are all relevant one handed weapons


then there are 2 Hander perks seperate tree, and all relevant 2 hander weapons underneath that

I can level a giant with a 2 handed War hammer, but not a one handed hammer?


Speed/Jump/Dodge


just to name a few, since we've already had this disucssion before.

you know what, nah I don't want to have this discussion again, because you may make statements independant of whats already been said by Todd :shrug:

When he cuts out the middleman, effectively they are stating What attributes did for skills are already there in Perks, then you read H/M/S is increased independantly of everything else during level up....how is this Organic?

While I think we'll be fine without certain attributes such as intelligence, there is still the issue of things like carry weight. There are two ways to address these through perks and skills alone:


Both of these, frankly, sound way less natural than if we simply had attributes covering for them. Or let me guess, you want to tie it to fatigue so that the nimble, small-framed who is good at running long distances is also somehow able to carry 10 claymores? I myself am partly behind removing attributes, but I still think they may be putting a bit of an unnecessary damper on character diversity by cutting it down to only three. :confused:

You have to understand.. It's for the greater good of Elder Scrolls -_-

They did say the same thing when Spears were taken out. :biggrin:

lol, so now you're arguing about what the devs DIDN'T say.

You people are complaining about something you've had no experience using. It's like saying an its like saying an Iron is less effective at removing creases because it uses less heat, but it has a wider contact area.

As for characters not being Unique from the get go.
Um, how vastly different were they anyway?
Most of my characters have been near on identical aside from when I've decided to make a mage over a fighter. My stealth characters have been sweet stuff all different to my all out warrior characters for the first 10 levels or so. After that they really take off.

So I don't see the point of selecting everything straight up. The way the new system is described is much more intuitive and flowing. I'll reserve judgment for when I actually play a game how ever, as allot of it will depend on how the system is executed.
If done poorly, it could easily destroy the game.

We can probably increase them by choosing perks (and enemys can nullify those perks). It's really stupid, I'll give you that, but there you have it.

I understand your pain, but I don′t share it.

That don't cover attributes, I know.

Yes.

The two requires different kind of strength or something...


Nearly all could be done under armor, sneak, or any other thief skill.

...if we exclude the possibility of general perks...

If you say so...


Carry weight could be put in as a perk, but I'll be honest, I don't know under which.

If nothing else, we can have backpacks...

Because people are using what the Devs didn't say as a reasoning for why "everythings gonna be alright, you're all just whiners"