Bethesda, why are you taking the TES out of TES? : V - Skyrim

» Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:06 am

The combat seems to have far more depth than either Morrowind or Oblivion. The leveling system sounds like its removing efficient leveling and rewards specialisation. There seems to be far more NPCs and towns/cities than Oblivion plus introduced things like woodcutting. The dungeons sound like they are better designed than Oblivion, but less numerous.

Sounds like they want people to just play how you want to and experience living a life in the game and not think about maths and maximising your characters potential by altering your behavior so you dont level before you get to a certain level of skill in a skill you don't WANT to use (like sneak if you are a mage fo you get 5 agility).

If having to constantly think about the mechanics of the game is TES to you, I imagine yes they are taking that out of it, but if you want to get immersed in a world, which is what I think is the true aim of TES.. lets see what the game world and AI are like but I like much of what Ive heard so far.

This will not be like a Fable game

» Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:43 pm

You are entitled to your own opinion, we all are. But have a little more faith in Bethesda. Die-hard morrowind fans might say that oblivion was a watering down of the TES formula but that game practically made bethesda a household name. making the decision on what to keep and what to let go is a hard one and i can almost guarantee you none of it was easy (Except maybe killing mysticism that one seems pretty easy) . As the series goes on wee Might see a lot of changes to this wonderful series and i think they will be changes for the better..........and is that so bad? A wise man once said: Change is the law of life. And those who look only to the past or present are certain to miss the future.

And to me the future of Bethesda looks bright :disguise:

Well said. :thumbsup:

» Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:09 pm

Why is it so tough for people to reserve judgment until they play the actual game?

Yah, people, the game isn't even out, give Bethesda the courtesy of not jumping down their throats at the prospect of change. It is inevitable. "Be more constructive with your feedback, please!" (All FotC fans, thumbs up).

Firstly
Morrowind was a complete change for TES. All those who have previously said so, spot on. I'm a massive Morrowind fan, there was a great amount of depth and enjoyment, lore, action, thrills, immersion etc. etc. etc. Especially if you played it when it came out, cutting edge stuff. Change brought about Morrwoind, which was fortunate.

Secondly
Oblivion addressed and added some things that Morrowind lacked, or didn't have. Personally, I don't think some of these came off just quite well enough for me to not be annoyed, but it was overall an interesting and exciting development for the series (and how cool is the final battle scene between Akatosh and Dagon?)

Thirdly
What Bethesda has released for Skyrim looks freaking awesome. All rumours, subjective content, half truths etc., please calm down and wait for more credential info.

Lastly
You'd think the company who have spent about 20 or more years dedicating their lives to the creation of great games would really care about what they make. I think Skyrim is gonna be TES, definately, but it's gonna have some crazy, awesome new stuff, which will understandably not go over so well with some. Too bad, can't please everyone.

» Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:19 pm

Um, what? I really don't think you have a grasp of this situation.
Where did I say you couldn't voice you opinion? I'm not saying you can't voice your opinion. Your opinion is that Skyrim is not mainstreamed/dumbed down. I never said you couldn't say that.
But 90% of you are saying that I can't say that it is. That = a double standard.

My opinion is that OBLIVION is not as "hurr mainstream dumbdown" as certain people have made it out to be on occasion. I'm saying to WAIT for Skyrim to come out. I worded it poorly in my previous post, but the point is: As far as we know, it's not dumbed down and it's not NOT dumbed down because we don't have the game in our hands yet, so we can't make a definite decision. This type of speculation holds no value until its release date.

Also, what allows you to dictate what my opinion is, exactly? You seem to love speaking for other people. (Note the SEEM, meaning I am not saying that you DO)

» Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:40 pm

Thirdly
What Bethesda has released for Skyrim looks freaking awesome. All rumours, subjective content, half truths etc., please calm down and wait for more credential info.

THIS THIS FOR GOD'S SAKE THIS! :bowdown:

Seriously, it's getting very World of Warcraft forums in here.

» Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:52 am

I think most veteran ES fans/players would agree with me that the dumbing down of the series to make more money is simply lame.

What!? Okay, I may have started playing TES when OB came out, but I fell in love with the series since then. My timeline of playing may be smaller than most veterans, but I've played all of them, save for most of Arena, and I'm extremely heavy into the lore (okay, maybe not at the level of Lady Nerevar, WKinkade, Luaguar2, proweler, Copper, and much more), but I'm often seen roaming the lore sub-forum more than any other area and try to involve myself deep into the game.

For me, I like what I've been seeing so far. MW may be my most favorite of the series, but it did lack in other departments, and Skyrim, if things go according to plan, will blow Morrowind out of the water.

I hope Finisheing moves won't be like Manga style Jap Games !

What was done in Deadly Combat was pretty nice. No jumping twirls or anything silly. Either you did the side power hit, and you sliced hands, heads, or someone's midsection off, or a stab in the gut and dead.

» Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:49 pm

Well said. :thumbsup:

Thank you

I try.

» Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:39 am

THIS THIS FOR GOD'S SAKE THIS! :bowdown:

Seriously, it's getting very World of Warcraft forums in here.

Bethesda needs to nerf survival for hunters! OP MAN OP. :brokencomputer:

Oh, and [censored] paladins.

:P

Edit* I agree with old Hellmouth up there. He knows what's what.

Also, I always assumed you started with Daggerfall. Well, dip me in scrib jelly and roll me down red mountain! :sweat:

» Mon Dec 13, 2010 1:38 pm

Things like:
-The removal of any realistic transportation system
-The removal of Attributes
-The removal SPELL MAKING? REALLY?
-Some sources say that we can't even talk to all NPC's. (although this could be mistranslation)

I didn't know about these. Now I'm worried.
But then again, what is TES? I mean, TES isn't just morrowind, oblivion is just as much an elderscrolls game as it's predecessors. And skyrim will be an addition to the library of Elder Scrolls. I think people are just freaking out over the change of the games. I definitely do not want another game like morrowind, then morrowind wouldn't be morrowind. Skyrim has to be CHAPTER 5 in the elder scrolls. A new thing. Different.

» Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:03 pm

Just dumping one of my previous posts here, concerning what I consider to be the "spirit" of TES, and what I'm personally most worried about being lost in the jump to Skyrim. Spell making and attributes aren't high on my concerns:

Over time, I've found discussions about comparing Morrowind to Oblivion and ultimately to Skyrim becoming increasingly tiresome: as I've come to realize, lots of Morrowind's game's mechanics aren't perfect, certainly there have been many games with better alternatives (Oblivion included, in some cases). Instead, much of what makes Morrowind so great to me is probably just grounded in nostalgia, and yet at the same time, there are so many little details - the "nuances" as you refer to them, that give it so much soul: light sources, the ability to drop gold, pillow forts, all of that. Little intricacies like uniquely hidden dungeon loot aren't really things a new player will identify with immediately into the game - rather things you'll only begin to notice after hours of playtime, things you won't truly appreciate until you move on to another game and realize just how badly you miss them.

I almost lament newer games, because of how "consistent" and predictable they're becoming in their presentation and format.

I think this is the issue with newer games: the presentation. They've become too comprehensive. A series which followed a similar fate, not many of you may have heard of it, is Sierra's Quest for Glory games from the early 90s. They were point and click adventure games, except your character was one of three (later four) classes and had their own skills and attributes. The game had combat, NPC schedules, all sorts of things. In many respects, the first was the best because the game world was so open. It hardly felt like an adventure game: aside from a few specific things you were to accomplish, you had a completely open world with different ways of proceeding depending on your abilities and class. Many things had to be learned or trained before you could make progress, but that just made things all the more rewarding. One simple example was money - in QFG1, it was very difficult to make money at first. You had to kill enemies or run item errands - a slow way to make profit, but it was still part of the experience.

By QFG4, there was no significance with money anymore. There was a cache that you found in the game, it was almost impossible to miss, that gave you more money than you'd ever need. Instead of exploring the world and fighting to improve your abilities, there was a training area you could just mindlessly visit every day. It was as if the creators were saying "we're tired of the whole character development thing, we know you guys want to get on with the plot - so here's a quick way to bring your character up to speed." <_<

I get this vibe with Oblivion sometimes. Think of how its dungeons more or less always had chests in the same preset places: niches in the walls for forts, corners for Ayleid casks. I can practically hear Todd speaking in my head: "good work, you've cleared another dungeon, here's your reward as always".

What really matters to me in TES games is the world, not the gameplay. My imagination can fill the gaps for the second one, but the world has to be compelling enough to begin with. Think about how Morrowind named all of its NPCs, even prematurely hostile ones such as bandits. I'd look upon their names and think, "wait, I wonder if they have any family?" or "some people in town were mentioning them, I wonder why they turned to a life of crime". Morrowind feels special because it was a world first and a game second. You can tell the developers really had fun making it, adding their own little cliffhangers and mysterious backstories to every location. Morrowind was very sloppy and inconsistent in places: but isn't that just like real life?

Don't get me wrong, Oblivion had nice moments, too: certainly, its side quests were much more enjoyable than Morrowind's, and there were still dungeons with stories behind them such as the Ayleid ruin outside of the Imperial City. Yet there were so few of these instances - most of the world still felt rigid and predictable, and I dearly hope Skyrim won't do this. Forget about skill quantity or the number of factions. I want everything to be alive, unique, and unpredictable: and trust me, that means more than just changing the architecture of each city.

» Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:05 pm

Morrowind isn't the be all end all of open world RPGs that so many people here make it out to be. Just give Skyrim a chance and be open minded.

» Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:40 pm

Imo, individual features are not "what makes TES TES." In fact, one of the things that makes TES TES is that rather than having common gameplay mechanics, esthetics, or features, they instead have a common world, lore, and history. Every TES game has been different from the last.

What I think a lot of people aren't considering is that many of the changes people label "dumbing down" were in direct response to the criticisms of a majority of people who played the previous games in the series. Quest markers? Direct response to people complaining about how easy it was to get lost, and how difficult it was to find objects or NPCs in Morrowind. Lack of levitation? Judgment call based on people wanting more "alive" cities with more NPCs, which they could only implement if they were interiors. Fast travel? Response to people's complaints about how long it took to get anywhere in Morrowind, especially if directions weren't clear. The new magic system in Skyrim, including the lack of spellmaking? Probably a direct response to people's complaints that magic was overpowered, too easy to exploit for leveling, that magic didn't feel exiting or epic enough, and that individual schools weren't differentiated enough from one another. How crowded with content Oblivion was? Direct response to people saying Morrowind had too much empty space with nothing in it.

Does Bethesda want to make their games more likely to sell to more people? Of course. They want to continue to profit and grow. So that they can, you know, continue to make more games (and more advanced games.) But they're also directly responding to people's constructive criticisms of their previous efforts. By far the biggest, more frequent complaints people seem to have had about Oblivion were: 1) The graphics look horrible at a distance (responded to with the new engine, hopefully,) 2) NPCs become boring and undifferentiated-seeming after a while because the culture and personality of every town is too "samey" (responded to by keeping the world the same size as Oblivion and focusing on variety and detail,) and 3) It's too easy to level skills/acquire money/become an epic level character (responded to - at least apparently - by completely reworking leveling, the economy, and the magic system.) People complain about things, and then dislike the solutions they come up with after brainstorming for five years, without even having seen how they work.

Just something to think about. I can respect the opinions of people who disagree.

» Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:20 pm

Mildly relevant : you folks do know a german magazine spoke of auto-aim in Skyrim ? :huh:

Seemed relevant to the conversation. *Helpful mode*

» Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:05 pm

Just dumping one of my previous posts here, concerning what I consider to be the "spirit" of TES, and what I'm personally most worried about being lost in the jump to Skyrim. Spell making and attributes aren't high on my concerns:

Good post. World and story are much higher on the list than ZUMG SPELL MAKUNG for me as well. Bethesda has said they have taken this in mind and tried to create a much detailed and unique world. Soon enough, when I play the game, I'll find out. I'm pretty hopeful right now, from what I've seen.

» Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:36 pm

this thread just won't die

» Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:15 pm

Mildly relevant : you folks do know a german magazine spoke of auto-aim in Skyrim ? :huh:

Seemed relevant to the conversation. *Helpful mode*

Auto-Aim? Sigh.
:facepalm:
Yeah, you're right guys. We aren't having our hands held at all. Skyrim surely wont be dumbed down.

» Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:56 am

this thread just won't die

When someone gets irked by seeing a thread that is almost the same as 100 others, they'll usually express their annoyance.

» Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:33 pm

My friends these are some slippery slopes I am reading about...

And it doesn't help that Skyrim has lots of very snowy and icy mountains

» Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:17 pm

What's up with all the doomsday threads popping up? More than likely Skyrim is gonna be way better than Morrowind and everyone is just freaking out over speculation and blowing out of proportion what we do know.

» Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:04 am

Seriously, it's getting very World of Warcraft forums in here.

It had better not. :stare:

I have already deleted some posts from this thread and I am getting grumpy - so, please stay on topic, constructive and above all, civil.

Thanks guys.

» Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:07 pm

Thanks for that post StoneFrog - that's pretty much the perspective I have as well, but you've put it very nicely. :thumbsup:

» Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:38 pm

I'm also worried... Maybe Morrowind will become the best game, by far, in the TES serie...

» Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:53 pm

Mildly relevant : you folks do know a german magazine spoke of auto-aim in Skyrim ? :huh:

Seemed relevant to the conversation. *Helpful mode*

I have to doubt auto aim and if Bethesda did for some reason decide to put that in I would hope that It would be optional

» Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:46 pm

-The removal of any realistic transportation system :Not Confirmed:
-The removal of Attributes :Not Confirmed:
-The removal SPELL MAKING? REALLY? :Not Confirmed:
-Some sources say that we can't even talk to all NPC's. (although this could be mistranslation) :Not Confirmed:

All of this info is speculation based on a few potentially unreliable snippets from magazines or on nothing at all.
All the negativity towards this game is silly.

» Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:50 am

Err ok, I am on here almost every day but even I am not this worried....This will not be like Fable I can tell you that, no idea where you got that idea.