The stutter is caused by EMC. It's a constant hitching that happens around once per second, whether the music is changing or not, regardless of where you are or what you're doing. The problem is the way EMC handles MP3 codecs on Vista/7, not which codecs are installed or whether they're installed properly. EMC will stutter if a clean, legitimate codec pack is installed on your computer, even when the additional MP3 codecs are disabled. Having one codec pack installed is a perfectly reasonable situation, not a "mess".

I don't mean to be rude, and I'm sorry if my posts came across that way. I just wanted to let you know that I was waiting for a version without EMC. I assumed you were aware of the stutter problem because it's been mentioned in every EMC thread that I've seen for several months now.

quote name='OnmyojiOmn' date='Dec 21 2009, 02:31 PM' post='15446692
"... The problem is the way EMC handles MP3 codecs on Vista/7 ..."

I think the key in that quote is "Vista/7". Apparently XP doesn't have this problem. At least I've never noticed it.
I have no clue, but I would guess there is something conflicting within the DirectX versions. IIRC, Vista comes packed with v10 and Oblivion uses v9.
Can both versions truly work side by side? I sure don't know. I'll hate giving this up when / if I switch to Win7.

Odd i've got win7 and never noticed any stutter with EMC as one of my own mods is using it. But then again i havn't installed any codec packs :shrug:

Is HawkleyFox willing to divulge the source code ?

The problem is only caused by EMC. I installed many other mods and all run smooth without lags, vanilla Oblivion too. The lag only starts when I run Oblivion with the EMC plugin. As I said frames are skipped every 3s and not only when a track changes. Users who did not install additional codecs probably won't have that issue, but some other applications and media perhaps require additional codecs. That's why uninstalling them is not an option for everyone.

ok. i actually WANT to sound rude now. some of you are pretty ignorant and i don't like ignorance...

i just can repeat what i wrote before:

1. EMC is NOT causing the stutter, it just makes it constantly visible. if you disable EMC you will notice a 2-3 seconds lag on every track change. this is caused by the same codec conflict.

and this is a common problem with oblivion as written e.g. in the Unofficial Technical FAQ here on gamesas (http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=561101):
'One thing Oblivion is especially sensitive about, is codecs and codec packs. If you have any codec pack, its best to uninstall it for the time being, just to see if thats whats causing the crashes.
Also, Nero codecs have been known to cause problems within the game. To delete the unnecesary codecs, and keep the good burning software, delete the following folder: C:/Program Files/Common Files/Ahead/DSFilter'

the 2-3 seconds freeze is also documented here: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Technical_Support

rewriting EMC will of course NOT solve this issue!

2. if a codec pack installer doesn't unregister any conflicting codecs it IS clearly a mess.

3. there's NO NEED to uninstall a codec pack, re-install windows, use XP, rewrite EMC, or even disable hw acceleration...

you can simply download a free tool and DISABLE ALL MP3 CODECS YOU DON'T USE. this includes any MP3 codec other than your prefered one. it makes no sense to keep more than 1 because your system doesn't use it. YOU DON'T have to uninstall any other codec that is not a MP3 codec. exclude oblivion.exe from ffdshow. it will take 2 minutes and the problem is fixed.

if you completely understand 3. (and there's no reason to keep more than 1 MP3 codec installed that i may have missed) and you still don't want to give it a try this is just ignorant.

but if you can explain to me why it's reasonable to keep a codec conflict that can be fixed easily i may consider dropping EMC...

I know what you're talking about and I do get that too, but the stutter with EMC is a much shorter hitch that happens every second or two, even when the music track is not changing. If you stand in a cell by yourself and stare at a wall, the hitching will still happen like clockwork while the music plays flawlessly.


We're not talking about conflicting codecs, or anything like that. All of the codec packs that I'm familiar with (CCCP, K-Lite, Shark007) use ffdshow for MP3 as well as several dozen other formats, all in one file. By default, ffdshow will prevent itself from being loaded by Oblivion as well as many other games, which fixes all of the codec issues in the tech support thread you linked. Further, if you disable the MP3 support, only the codecs included with Windows are used. In other words, you'll effectively have no third-party MP3 codecs installed but EMC will still stutter. Simply having the codecs on your system causes the problem, and uninstalling ffdshow will cripple media playback outside of the game. There are no real alternatives to ffdshow, and there doesn't need to be because it's awesome.

yes. i had that stutter too. that's why i know for SURE: cleaning your codec mess will fix BOTH issues. it's definitely the same cause!

it has nothing to do with ffdshow. i guess, if you would intall ffdshow standalone you wouldn't get that issues.

what's the problem with just downloading that tool and cleaning up?

EDIT:
ok, i can confirm this now: i just installed ffdshow standalone, let it handle MP3 and there's NO STUTTER in oblivion!

I give up, dude. Do what you want.

I don't use any codecs ( nothing at all ) and I've seen the plugin cause stutter on my machine. But then again, its just my machine.

Fact is, many Mod users are not aware of the problem or what issue is causing the problem. And if they are, many of them are not aware how to uninstall codecs etc. So if you want many people to use your mod, you should make it as user friendly as possible, and fixing the stuttering problem (by writing a new plugin or obtaining the source code from EMC) would be one step in that direction.

Again: I haven't noticed this famous suttering everyone is talking about. The mod does that it is supposed to do, how about we all stop complaining and actually thank side for taking the trouble for making it for all of us to enjoy? Seriously, half this thread is directed to bashing EMC and side for using it in his mod... Show a little bit of gratitude, please, unless you people are wanting everything to be served to you in a silver platter.

But, then again, if everybody seems to be complaining about this problem then perhaps, if the fix is easy enough to make, that would end up fixing this whole mess.

I'll second this. I've used this mod on my XP, Vista, and 7 partitions (all 64 bit) with absolutely no issues. I'm using a creative sound blaster XFI with a host of other sound mods (most notably, Soundscraqer + Oblivion EAX) and have absolutely no stuttering problems at all. I also have CCCP installed for codecs. BetterMusicSystem works great.

Thanks for the reply, gyshall, it is good to hear that somebody else is not suffering from this famous "stuttering" which some people are reporting. BetterMusicSystem is flawless, it works perfectly fine for me and this "stuttering" seems to be non-existent on my system. If people are just going to come here to complain about something which was not made by side... Then all I can tell you to do is to kindly back away and complain to the maker of EMC.

thank you Magirock and gyshall!




do you also have that 2 seconds freeze on track change without EMC?? if not, you may have discovered another issue. if you have it, you could just check for codec conflicts. some programs install codecs unasked and silently. i had the stutter on a fresh win7 install after installing CS4... also burning software may be a candidate...




yes, you are right. many users are not aware of this problem. because THEY DID NOT READ THE README!! i wrote: '4. the OBSE-plugin 'Enhanced Music & Control' can cause stuttering if you have more than 1 mp3 codecs installed in you system.' what else should i do??

again you are right. many of them are not aware how to manage codecs. I WAS ONE OF THEM until i searched google. it took 20 seconds to find the right article and 5 minutes to gather my knowledge about codecs. if someone is to stupid, to lazy, to pampered or just to stoned for searching google i actually don't want them to use my mod.

i would be happy if someone could rewrite the plugin. i would request some features i miss with EMC... but this would NOT fix the codec conflict and you would still have the 2 seconds lag on track change!! i wonder if it's possible at all to find a workaround for this and keep the functionality. but i'm sure this is a step in the WRONG DIRECTION!

i just can repeat: what's the problem with just downloading that tool and cleaning up?

I didn't want to sound rude and I'm sorry if someone feels upset now. For myself I could fix the stuttering problem by uninstalling my old codec pack and installing another one. But I guess that won't help in every case. I just hope I dont have problems with other media now because some codecs are missing or whatever. Btw, I didn't (and still don't) have that 2s stuttering during trackchange, I only suffered from the general stuttering.

Just wanted to drop by and mention I'll be using this mod again. Finally found a workaround for this whole codecs <-> EMC mess. The only codec pack I had installed was CCCP (and confirmed by using CCCP-Insurgent), and yet the ffdshow Audio component kept causing (or atleast contributing) to the mp3 conflict. It shouldn't be an issue with CCCP itself, perhaps a conflict with a new vista windows codec or something.

Anyways, there was no other mp3 codec installed as far as I could tell. Nor did any of the programs mentioned in this thread or the Hardware Issues thread. So I went in http://www.nirsoft.net/utils/installed_codec.html and disabled the two ffdshow Audio filters. Voila, stuttering went away, not really a suprise because I knew they had a conflict with something. But I was suprised I could still play all my .mkv files (gotta love anime ), no problems with the audio whatsoever.

So to make a long story short: I disabled the ffdshow Audio filters from CCCP to stop a mysterious (and hidden) conflict without breaking my beloved .mkv playback stuff.

Still, I'm gonna keep looking for the other party involved in the above mentioned 'conflict'.

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Something else, I love most of the features of this mod. But I don't really feel like setting up all those playlists for regions, cells, etc. I know I can disable them in the ini but I was wondering if a playlist is ignored anyways when there are no mp3 files in the associated folder?

And another thing, a while ago I asked if there is a certain script variable other mods can check to see if the player is in actual combat or if the current combat is being simulated by BetterMusicSystem's dummy rat. From looking at the scripts I think I can read the StopCombatMusic variable in the 1BMSCombatScript to determine if the current combat has ended. Probably need to combine it with IsInCombat to filter out situations where the player is still in combat but BMS wants to stop the battle music.

Something like:

if player.IsInCombat && StopCombatMusic == 0;Genuine combatelseif player.IsInCombat && StopCombatMusic;Likely fake combat as a result of the endif

How does that sound, likely to work? Or am I overlooking something obvious here? The only thing I'm not sure on is how it would work for situations where BMS stops (or prevents) the combat music while the player is technically in combat already (and not with the dummy rat). Maybe I should check for the presence of the dummy rat. :unsure:

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I just had another idea, dunno if it'll work so it may just be some dumb idea. How about, instead of forcing the player into combat and/or overridding the battle music you make a custom battle-playlist using the "Music\Battle" folder. Then just override the battle music all the time and activate/deactivate the battle-playlist to replicate the battle music completely. If it is possible it would allow you to have far more control and reliability over when and when not to hear the battle music. :shrug:

What do you think? Is it possible? Is it worth the changes (also very important to ask ofcourse)?

-kyoma

no. you MUST have at least the dummy.mp3 in any folder in use by BMS! all playlists are initialized on load so you can use it with the emerald or spell though, even if you disable it in the ini. if you assign a playlist with only the dummy in it you get silence.

i don't know for what purpose you need the vanilla IsInCombat, but you can't use StopCombatMusic for this. it's set to 1 after 3 runs of the script without detecting another enemy. this is not exactly the vanilla combat end. AND it's also set to 1 if BMS stops combat music in the middle of a 'combat', e.g. with only 'rats' left, enemy not visible, etc... the dummy rat is always present so you can't use it.
but it's save to use IsInCombat. BMS just extends the vanilla combat by the duration of the battle music fadeout and only if the battle is really over. do you really need the combat end a few seconds earlier?

yes, i had MUCH trouble with the dummy rat, i was more than 1 time really close to use your idea. but i would lose an important feature of EMC: the resume of music after a short battle AND the resume of the battle music if it's reinstated soon! depending on your play style it's possible that BMS shortly interupts battle music 3 or 5 or more times during combat. if you turn around in that moment this is not noticable, otherwise you get a short fadeout/fadein. but without the resume feature EMC would always change the track when you hide behind a wall or step around a corner!

No. No such issue. I don't use any burning s/w or any adobe CS application. Strangely, the EMC stutter manifests itself only when I reduce the music volume to 10 or below. When it's above that threshold, I have not issues with the plugin.

ok. this is clearly another issue. does this happen with BMS and SoundCommands disabled?

Sadly I discovered another issue with EMC. It seemed to cripple my FPS during dialogue (from 30-40 to a low 15), regardless of installed codecs or mods using it. Tried it with just EMC and no mods, issue remained.

What sound card/specs are you guys using? I know nothing of scripting or the like, but perhaps that can help narrow down exactly what causes it.

Stuff like Operating System, 32/64 bit, memory amount, graphics card, CPU, and the big one - sound card.

Yup. I actually don't use BMS.

One of the very firsts issues I had with the plugin.

Not sure if this got mentioned but I saw alot of stuff about the "Source code being released." It is as far as I can tell, unless said source is a dummy link and/or out dated anyways.

http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=19772 scroll to the bottom it looks like he released it on Nov 14th though maybe I'm mistaken

dialogue only or any menu?
would you, kyoma and shadeMe, please try to use the vanilla mp3s only? some people had troubles with some mp3s...
i think this issue could be solved if someone would look at the source...

HawkleyFox released the source, but who requested this and who are the 21 people who downloaded it? may be someone is already working on it?