Ah but that's where the new crime system could come in. I have a feeling that guards will try to subdue and incarcerate for most crimes now.

I haven't read past the OP and presume this has been mentioned already, but meh.
My guess is that they don't want to make the same mistake they did with Oblivion. They talked it up a lot and didn't implement it as advertised. Chances are the AI is rad, but if they can't put it in the game they don't want to disappoint people.

Personally, I never understood why they chopped out most of RAI out of Oblivion instead of changing one thing - making it impossible for NPCs to _kill_ each over outside of quests. Just have them knock each other out, and have each knock-out significantly reduce aggression. We players would have gotten all the benefits of RAI with none of the disadvantages, in this scenario.

It would be even better if certain skills (HtH) and spells (damage fatigue, etc) just knocked enemies out and made them lootable while they were out. Then NPCs could use only this stuff during their RAI fights, and the player could start bar fights, etc. without the fear of depopulating the world. Beating somebody up to "persuade" them into spilling their secrets could be possible, too...

All in all a huge missed opportunity there, IMHO.

I'd be really disapointed if this time the AI is pretty much the same. If that truly was a cut down caused by the lack of time for tweaking and testing, then now after 5 years i hope everything is done and running.

I doubt they can accomplish what was shown in E3 without bugs and chaos. I hope they'll prove me wrong, though.

Eh perhaps. Regardless of my views, I will buy this game regardless. I just want it to be the best game possible like everyone else does. :tes:

So more or less you are suggesting that guards have a game play role, as well as a system role to maintain order and stability. Interesting concept. I like it.

The problem with a lot of people is that they are too pessimistic, so that when the game is finally released, they are so negative towards it, they won't enjoy the game as much... Of course, it's the same the other way around as well.

I got high hopes, but I don't expect anything, that's my policy.

We have the same expectations then. I'm definitely looking forward to the game, but I'm not expecting it to completely change the industry. What I do expect is another solid title, player-driven, streamlined experience that BGS has been suggesting.

At the same time though, that doesn't mean I can't be critical of systems that perhaps could use more focus. If anything, these forums are here to provide feedback and necessary communication between the developers and the community.

So true!
Be as critical as you want, I just want to wait till I know more before I start.

I expect the biggest problem with RAI was the lack of granularity - from provocation to response. A simple theft turns into a town massacre, because the AI lacks perspective.

Much of this could be fixed with tweaking, perhaps some scripting, but a lot of Oblivions issues really needed code fixes - which is probably why it was so heavily toned down.

For example, there is little reason to go from "pay a fine" to "die, criminal scum" in under 60 seconds. The initial guard response to an NPC theft, or other low-level crime, should be to incapacitate, rather than kill. If the criminal manages to kill one of the guards, then, by all means, escalate the conflict; but until then, guards should attempt to knock out the NPC. Save the killing for when guards witness a murder, or other more serious crime.

Further, simply having unrelated NPC's stay out of a battle between a criminal and the guards would virtually eliminate town-killing altogether. As long as there is a flag indicating that the non-guard NPC started the fight, only fellow criminals or associates of the criminal should enter combat. Fights between individual NPC's who aren't guards would be more difficult, but by increasing the granularity of responses, it might be possible to mostly avoid this sort of thing.

Sure, it might still be possible to trigger a chain of events that result in the depopulation of a town, but it is far less likely - and now you can simply set script triggers that can override the normal behaviors to maintain order. I really hope these sorts of things are implemented, because I would really like to have a more powerful AI to play around with.

As an aside, it would be intensely gratifying if you heard guards demanding other NPC's pay the fine or go to jail if you are nearby. It would be even more so if some NPC's (who could) just paid the fine.

Lastly, bar fights are one area where this could get stupid, and fast. It would only take one brawler dying to turn it into a massacre.

I agree that a lot of the issues of Radiant AI could be resolved if NPC choices weren't so black and white. There needs to be some sense of moral code of structure implemented to prevent the AI from doing irrational and unethical things. Hopefully, some of these issues will be resolved when BGS elaborates on their new crime system.

Oh, would it be too much to ask that related enemies work together as allies? Even low level enemies, like rats, could gain from this. Perhaps one rat lures you into combat at the end of a tunnel, leaving time for all his rat buddies to come up behind you. Easy kill? Sure, but it would make combat with rats more interesting. Now, scale that up to other, more dangerous, combatants - and suddenly combat gets more 'entertaining'.

Nothing complex, just some squad level AI such as that implemented by almost any decent FPS game would do it.

It would definitely be a welcomed feature. It would give us the illusion that the AI has a self-awareness, which would make the combat more believable and interesting as a result.

Less: Indifferent guard becomes raging force of judgement for touching a spoon.
More: Emotionally believable AI making rational decisions that don't result in radical and chaotic situations.

No matter how good it gets it will always be flawed. People will always complain. I definitely see room for improvement, but I wouldn't say that the previous AI system "failed", like a lot of people say. No it wasn't perfect, but it's ridiculous to expect it to be. And frankly, I don't get what makes everyone assume that they haven't made big improvements on the AI. We've hardly seen any of the game yet, and already people are saying they're disappointed about the lack of AI improvement.

If I can frame an NPC by stealing something and planting it on him, I'm satisfied.

I never felt that random NPC's are a big part of TES games. They're more like 'intelligent' scenery. Of course they shouldn't be killing eachother or you over something petty but they're not thát important imo. Just make for some small talk among the NPC's and some level of interaction between you and the guards with a maximum of a four-tier system of fines. As long as random NPC's add to the basic immersion I'm fine.

There were moments like this in Oblivion, though. Moments where NPCs would pick fights or kill each other or my character, and at times they were seemingly random. :shrug: I would say these moments didn't happen quite as often as I would have liked, but they do happen, even in the vanilla game.



Meh.

The amount of computer programming this implies seems better spent on some other facets of the game. It would be entertaining to see a shopkeeper go on a rampage against other shopkeepers, but if Bethesda doesn't go this far, I'm still fine with what I know will be in Skyrim.



I"m not flaming you, just making a couple observations. I know nothing about computer programming, but I do know it takes a LOT of time to get it right. All this stuff you mentioned sounds cool, but Bethesda is gonna get done what they're gonna get done.

...it's like the game isn't even out yet and you've already set it up (in your mind) as a fail.



Voted "no" on the poll, obviously. There are guaranteed improvments with the Ai, improvements over Oblivion that is. I'm happy with this.

All of you complaining about the awesomeness that is the TES series should try getting an Atari 2600, putting Adventure in (very early RPG on consoles in the early '80s) and piloting a BOX around. That's what your character was, a box. The "sword" looks like an arrow. After an afternoon of Adventure, come back to Oblivion or some other TES game and perhaps you'll really appreciate what Bethesda has managed to do all these years.

There seems to be an assumption on these forums that being concerned, or critical of a system means I'm automatically suggesting the game is a "fail."

This is not the case at all, and I apologize if you come to that conclusion. I am merely looking at what we know Radiant AI can do, and wondering if BGS will take advantage of that or not. Obviously it's very tedious and code-intensive, and would probably require a dedicated team to drill out the system. BGS will clearly make improvements, but from what we know now (and it may not be everything) the system got a few new upgrades and a brand new coat of paint.

Being critical is not "complaining." It is merely putting faith into a product you plan to buy, hoping that BGS can make it as quality as possible so that many can enjoy it for hundreds of hours. I am quite aware of how much of an undertaking a game like TES is, and I am thankful that BGS has the talent, funding, and will to pull it off.

Keep in mind though that the forums are an important place for game development. Not only does it allow the consumer to stay up to date with the game, but it also delivers instant feedback to the developer to make sure they stay on track. There is nothing wrong with being critical, if it actually makes the game better.

Thank you! I really like the idea of more thorough AI as well as you do, and I think that the safeguard to prevent out of control brawls and massacres is simple enough. Guards, and town elders etc. could simply step in whenever NPCs in those areas start to get out of control, and at that point the NPCs could be programmed to automatically deffer to authority at least 90 to 95% of the time, ensuring that random occourances become a regular feature of the game, but never spiral into full on riots or massacres. If the guards are half as "on the job and in your case" as the Oblivion and Morrowind guards are with the players when we act up, then there should be nothing to worry about. "Stop right there lawbreaker!!!"

Yep. Sounds fair enough. Having the guards be peace keepers, as well as Radiant AI moderators could potentially fix a lot of the issues Radiant AI had in the past. If there is any chaos, it is because there are no enforcers of the law left to maintain order. We will see what Skyrim has to say when they announce their new crime system though.

The bottom line is, we have absolutely no information on how the AI is going to function yet. None, squat, zilch, nada. We have a few scenes from the trailer, most of which are too short to really reveal much. The only pieces that actually show combat are between two combatants, and show close combat. The only one that was remotely interesting from this perspective was the bit where an NPC gets their throat cut - and that was disturbing, because no one else in the tavern reacted. Even with chameleon, there should have been enough combat to break the illusion, but they cut away really fast - so perhaps it just hadn't happened yet, or it was footage with the AI off.

I simply stated some things I would like to see, but it seems a bit premature to start a thread with a title like this one. Who knows how conservative or liberal they have been with RAI?

Well if you look closley that guy looks like a dummy. So I guess they wont be scared if you cut a fake body.

Or, and this is wishful thinking, that's the local Dark Brotherhood guild house - and you are training.

Perhaps it's better to have a thread about an important system that may spur feedback than not at all?

We know a lot about this game. People may argue otherwise, but we really do.

- We know the story and premise
- We know combat has been overhauled
- We know menus and skills have been streamlined
- We know BGS has implemented in Radiant Story
- We know about the hardware powering Skyrim and what it's capable of
- We even know that Radiant AI is being upgraded to a degree

For the most part, we know about everything that is important and a core system to the game. With that being said, we also probably know all the new features of these systems. Aside from factions and some other content, there really isn't much we don't know. We just haven't actually seen a demo yet.

Exactly. And as such, we can predict what we might see, and comment on how we feel about that. If the AI in Skyrim IS rubbish, then I for one won't bother buying the game, because the game will be a repetitive experience in a new setting. Oblivion's Radiant AI has no problem solving ability. If I steal a fighters guild member's bow, then their schedule will tell them to spend 4 hours a day for the rest of the game standing looking at a target forlornly. They should be able to go out, buy a new bow, and return to their normal schedule. A guard should be able to inspect a dead body and do something about finding the killer, rather than saying "There is a killer on the loose" - ignoring the murderer holding a bloodstained sword standing over the body - and going about his everyday business as usual.