Hey guys,
I just wanted to know if anyone else thought that perhaps BGS is playing it too safe with Radiant AI again. While they are definitely making improvements with npcs noticing the player drop a weapon, being more interactive with the player, being aware of their family member's death, and actually having a job, they still seem rather static. I remember reading a post by one of the developers pre-Oblivion on the old TES website, that they had this one encounter using Radiant AI. It wasn't anything special, but more or less the player is walking through a small settlement, and a drunk nord stumbles out of a nearby tavern. Without any warning, he immediately picks a fight with the player, and a hand-to-hand combat sequence more or less breaks out. I personally thought the unpredictability of this system could really lead to completely unique and everlasting content. Radiant AI wouldn't even have to just be limited to interaction with the player either.

I would actually like to see more interaction between different NPCs as well. For example, if there are two competing shop keepers in a settlement, I would like to see the other try and sabotage their competition by sabotaging the logging supply. Perhaps, even random criminals could occasionally break out of jail due to increases self-awareness and skill. It would even be nice to see the Fighter's Guild and the Thieve's Guild get in a conflict and having their members combat the other to settle the matter. While I recognize Radiant AI needs to be monitored and controlled to prevent it from going to far, I believe BGS could do a lot more with the system to make NPCs more alive. Does anyone else also feel that BGS may be playing it too safe with Radiant AI with Skyrim? It has been five years since Oblivion, and I would argue we are really not seeing that much of an improvement. Lets exclude Radiant Story from the topic, as it is more for quest-related purposes and really has nothing to do with Radiant AI.

How do you actually know at least some of the things you mention are not there? All I have actually found is snippets on the beefed-up AI system they have, but nothing too extensive. It would be hard to guess before actually playing the game.

To be honest, if BGS really made huge advancements in the Radiant AI system, wouldn't you think they would talk about them (especially in the GI exclusive)? As I suggested above, they have talked about Radiant AI quite a lot. However, they have made minor adjustments and tweaks to make npcs appear more lively (jobs, noticing items dropping, etc). If anything, every time Radiant AI is mentioned, Todd usually mentions Radiant Story almost immediately, as it is the new feature. I'm not saying it's not possible there will be other features they will announce about Radiant AI later, but I'm almost certain we have heard all the improvements. Todd already said that we would see more dragons, factions, and shouts at E3 mainly...

I think that they are leaving room for them and the radiant system to grow in later games such as TES VI and VII

I only want Bethesda to give the Radiant AI more freedom if it's smart enough to not have complete chaos break out the first opprotunity it has. You didn't mention anything about the pre-release examples of Radiant AI where the whole town essentially descended into chaos over one character needing the tool another character has, even with Radiant AI as it was in the final game, characters would sometimes kill each other, if Radiant AI had fewer limitations, the game world might quickly become depopulated of all non-essential, non-respawning NPCs due to nothing the player has any control over. It seems that Radiant AI, as it was before Bethesda chose to limit it, was advanced enough to allow NPCs to do unpredictable things but not advanced enough to keep them from breaking the game at the first chance they get, and unless Bethesda can truly design a system that can do the former without falling into the trap of the latter, it's better to play it safe and deliver a world that is less dynamic, but is able to function, rather than one that is quite dynamic, but can collapse at any given moment.

Yeah. I'm just under the impression BGS doesn't feel the need to have to really push Radiant AI that much further at this point. The more control they give the AI, the less control BGS has over their actions, which is why Radiant AI was simplified in Oblivion and why I think BGS is cautious of improving upon it. Perhaps this is just something BGS wants to focus on with the next generation. I don't know.

I completely understand your point and recognize this is why BGS is cautious with Radiant AI. I guess I was just hoping that they could have figured out a way to perhaps rectify this problem by now since Oblivion and now Fallout 3 have passed. By far, there are many horror stories of the strange and odd things Radiant AI is capable of if NPCs have too much control. But if BGS were to find that middle ground of giving dynamic NPCs without breaking the game world, that in itself could very well be a game changer. Radiant AI would by far be the most advanced and premier AI system in the gaming industry.

Drastic improvements are there. Hopefully we'll see some around E3.

I think drastic is a bit too strong of a word. The system has had some "creative" improvements, but it's not a completely different system from Oblivion or Fallout 3.

I was thinking about this the other day... what about simply finding out how to program the AI with a specific set of rules, like the ones that Isaac Asimov introduced, and implementing those in game?
i.e a specifc NPC must use any means necessary to avoid their own death and avoid harming another NPC. Granted that would be incredibly complicated, but I'm sure that it is technically possible.

Think about it. If someone breaks into your house in the middle of the night, and you're ANYONE, are you really going to go and confront them and demand that they leave? Hell as like. You open the window wide and yell fire.

No offense, but this thread is laughable. You know absolutely nothing about how the final product of Skyrim will be, we are 6 months from release, yet you claim that "..npc's seem static"? LOL. You gained this knowledge..how? A single gameplay trailer and a game demo of an ALPHA build of the game that you haven't even seen?
:rofl:
Honestly, that's all I have to say. A "lol". Because I laughed out loud. :rolleyes:
I realize that my post may have come off as harsh, but honestly, this is the 1000th thread I have seen where people claim that Bethesda isn't doing something right, yet we have ZERO proof of anything that they are doing. You cannot judge this game yet. You simply cannot.

Seeing as how they have added all of these extra jobs/activities I would classify it being a bigger improvement over their previous games then what you're assuming.

Honestly, I want to provide something useful to your thread but I can't vote on this particular poll without playing the game myself . I will say that I agree with Dragonborn1 about how they are improving on it. I also know that with every game they try to improve the detection for stealth characters so I am hoping it is top notch, that is all I can say though.

I think you are taking this topic too personally. I am in no way attacking, or judging BGS in any manner. I am just merely stating that I feel (from what we have heard about Radiant AI, which has been talked about), while BGS is making needed improvements to the system, that it is still very conservative of what they potentially could do. We know that Radiant AI has the capacity to do much more, as we all heard the stories with Oblivion and so on. It just seems that BGS is avoiding making any major improvements to the system by adding other systems, such as Radiant Story. It's not a bad decision or choice to make, but eventually BGS will have to improve the AI. It's inevitable.

I'm completely on board with what BGS decides to do and what direction they want to take the game. I just feel that Radiant AI is being avoided, and BGS is being very careful with how they approach the system. I think the improvements they are adding to Radiant AI will be satisfactory for Skyrim, but I'm expecting to see some huge improvements with Fallout IV and the next generation.

I have a theory that might hold water.

The problem with the AI in Oblivion was that they had throttle control problems it was either very basic or wide open as was demonstrated in the Making of Oblivion video.

With me so far? Ok.

Now my theory here is that they are going to use the Raidant Story(RS) (which we know watchs everything that happens in the gameworld) as throttle control for the AI.
The Raidant AI will tell the PC what it's want's and needs are and the Radiant Story(RS) will define how to meet those needs in a broader range of action than the previous "steal,fight,run" all or nothing system. Basically the quest engine(RS) will provide a scripted behavior that fits with the world the NPCs are living in. An NPC decides that he is hungry and RS gives him options for making money and buying or trading for goods or maybe even hunting up some quail or rabbit.

Yeah, I know, my aim is pretty high, so sue me. :tongue:

It's just a theory anyway.

I definitely like your theory, but it is a bit farfetched. It would be an interesting tool to bridge the unwieldiness of the Radiant AI system, but I don't think BGS is using it in that manner. For now, at least, Radiant Story seems to be specifically for offering unique and dynamic quests to keep the player engaged and interested. At least that is the impression I got from how Todd described the system in the various interviews and articles.

If this theory were not the case however currently, perhaps BGS could create a small team for their next project (like they did with dragons) to solely work on making Radiant AI more dynamic and accessible, without breaking the game. I honestly really believe if BGS could master the Radiant AI system, that it would bring them endless praise, success, and money.

Yeah, I got a distinctly different impression. That's cool I'll continue to be optimistic because it won't have any effect on the end result for me. I understand and respect that some people need to remain pessimistic because hype ruins the game for them.

From what i have seen all the pieces are there and how far Bethesda goes with it will remain to be seen. Rest assured i will see the modding community take it the rest of the way until the day we have a truly dynamic living economy.

Exciting times ahead. :yes:

Lol don't misunderstand. I am in no way pessimistic towards this game. Besides SWTOR, this is by far my most anticipated game of 2011. I love TES and have been an avid fan ever since Morrowind was released in 2002.

It's actually quite common for people to be more critical of the products they care most about, but I know Skyrim will be a great game. I just think Radiant AI is a very special tool, and it is yet to be seen how much of an impact it will make in Skyrim.

with the new system of replacing quest givers with relatives this could really work well. In oblivion there was always the risk that an important char may be killed, either attacked by bandits on the road, or killed in a fight, or mowed down by the player, which is why radiant AI was toned down, and so many chars were made essential. In skyrim however, would be neat if NPC's could murder each other, since they can be replaced anyway, no worry about losing quest givers.

I don't see how it seems static. NPCs have jobs and occupations, earn money, have random events like fighting over a sword or returning it to you, there has been talk of them liking you less if you push their stuff around, treating intrusions differently based on their attitudes to you, taking certain roles in quests based on your interactions with them (R-AI seems to have a lot to do with RS), having full memories of all these interactions, and presumably doing other things they also did in Oblivion like stealing from one another on occasion and so on. I would say it is a very significant improvement.

And with these improvements, who is to say that opposing factions won't fight each other, or destroy each others resources (though 2 competing shops would have the same resource, so not much point there) or good stealth characters won't jailbreak? Those seem minimally more impressive, if at all, than the examples that have been previously mentioned. I think how they have explained it, the system sounds quite impressive.

Hmmm, do we want an amazing, almost sentient set of npc schedules and behaviour patterns, or a stable game? Seems pretty much those were the choices they were faced with in Oblivion. Personally I would err on the side of stability.
They are still churning out games with static npcs, you still get guys saying Morrowind was the most immersive thing ever, seems to me no one would actually care about npc behaviour in a non combat situation, if Bethesda hadn't done a bit of premature crowing.
Imho, OB's AI would be the object of general praise if more had not been offered, and there still aren't many games that do it better,

As long as the random comments are more numerous, and less grating with over-use, this time around, as long as there are tweaks to guard awareness and reactions to friends being killed from stealth, I don't see too much of a problem. Do we really need a complete overhaul, when maybe just a bit of refining would be good enough?

@ OP: I think your judging a little early.After what happened with the clip of oblivion it's no wonder they are taking their time showing the AI. "My opinion" They tried to make the AI like what was shown in that oblivion demo,but later realized it didn't work to well ( sort of out of control,more than they expected ). Sometimes dev's have to make tough decisions.In the end they had to tone it down for oblivion,but alot of people said it was a con,i believe other-wise. We have more to know yet,so let's wait and see. Besides,i thought the AI in oblivion wasn't bad at all,and was a lot better than most/if not all games at the time. To me bethesda obviously cares about their reputation and not just money,yes,they need money,they wouldn't get far without it.But they are still going to have a sense of pride and an interest to push the boundries. What makes me laugh sometimes is how much people bang on how bad oblivion was,then turn around and say it had great mods or they played 500 + hours. Anyway,too early to try and judge AI,we'll see what they do.

Tha AI in Oblivion was too far in the demo, so I'm glad they toned it down. I mean the dog is barking, so the woman paralyses it, and then shoots it with fire. It needed to be toned down until they could get it working a little less ridiculously.

I think you can scratch NPCs reacting to the player dropping a weapon and being aware of a family member's death from Radiant AI improvements (or at least strike them from known improvements). So far, the only time Bethesda or an official preview mentions either of those kinds of things, it is only to highlight what is being done through Radiant Story.

Radiant AI improvments mentioned on http://www.gameinformer.com/games/the_elder_scrolls_v_skyrim/b/xbox360/archive/2011/01/17/the-technology-behind-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim.aspx?PostPageIndex=1 are pretty much small things to correct what seems odd in Oblivion. An NPC's disposition toward you will influence how he reacts when you break into his home or take something he owns. An NPC will notice when you are swinging a weapon near him or are knocking over his stuff and will react because of it.

I do not know what you mean by NPCs "actually having a job." There are NPCs with jobs in Oblivion. Some run shops, some farm, some guard, some beg, some practice with their weapons, and some are admitted loafers or retirees. Bethesda has added animations so that NPCs appear to be doing more than pacing around staring at walls. I remember Todd talking about adding those kinds of animations for Fallout 3. He saw them as mostly cosmetic improvements, things to dress the AI's idling moments, not as modifications to the AI itself.



I think what actually happens is the dog barks on schedule and the woman paralyzes it on schedule. The dog barks again on schedule and the woman flames it on schedule. The timing of the actions produce the illusion that the woman is reacting to the dog's barking. NPCs having schedules and pursuing goals and having dynamic conversations seems to be what the demo is supposedly about, nothing more.

Yes,i think that was why they did what they did.If they'd have left it as originally shown,it would have been worse for the game in my view.Also people need to remember they have a lot more time this time around than they did with oblivion.And they have basically re-wrote/changed the engine to improve allsorts,and that includes AI.


Off topic: I thought i'd point this out,not worth it's own thread.
Now a while back we found out about " magnetism" Which a lot of us didn't like,including me...but i then changed my mind when i sat and thought about it.
Anyway,from the articles we've read over the last week or so,i don't think anyone mentioned or picked out about the magnetism. ( at least to my kowledge .)
So that begs the question: Is it that noticeble at all or was it not in there yet? I believe it was in there,but it wasn't noticed. So are our worries about that now set to rest?....Because if it was that bad,wouldn't it have been noticed?
Sorry to off topic,didn't think it was worthy of a whole new thread.