It's still a lot easier than creating a new system where Daedra can be permanently summoned through whatever means (I doubt they'd allow you to have more than one permanent summon, but how would that work with regular summons exactly?). Not only would it be annoying if your Daedra dies (having to do another ritual), but it'd also be hard to explain lore-wise (unless I'm wrong in assuming that simply anyone can't permanently bind as many Daedra as they like, in quick succession, with little-to-no work involved -- how hard it is to get a soul gem, really?).

Summoning Daedra which continually eat your magicka in order to stay bound to Mundus seems like a relatively safe idea. It doesn't have to consume a whole lot, but enough that Mages can't simply summon their most powerful creature and continually blast their enemies with their most powerful spells at the same time. In my opinion, that's abusing the system. The same goes for warriors that have just enough magicka to summon a decent Daedra, summon it, and start knocking around their enemies with their biggest, baddest weapons.

A system like that would also be able to scale with the amount of magicka you have (rewarding those with higher magicka), the higher the alchemy skill (more magicka through potions/other means), the more you explore (assuming there are items that also restore your magicka in-game), and the more money you acquire (to be able to purchase any item/potion/etc.. that restores magicka). It could also use conjuration as a means to lower the amount of magicka consumed (or how often it is consumed).

It just seems a lot better than giving us static conjuration spells that work the same, regardless of your magicka and conjuration ability. And, for those warriors who like to have a decent conjuration skill, a perk could be added that allowed for summons to stick around while only cancelling your magicka regeneration -- not consuming (meaning they'd be permanent summons).

I'd like to point out there's nothing wrong with your system. It could easily exist besides our permanent "named" summons.

And permanent summoned ones would obviously be much stronger then there common summoned and type you find in caves or whatever, simply to make it worth while to get the perk.

with summoning pacts or perma summons which have been and is practiced in nirn, You are taking a Daedra from a plane of Oblivion and bringing them to Mundus, you are not making a portal or a life line of which the Daedra needs to remain in this world your magicka draining lore wise would fizzle out very quick and you would have the farce that is Oblivions(the game) 30 second summonings.


yes in lore most summonings are temporary and Daedra return to their plane, but permenant summons often have Daedra bound to certain items, directions or pacts such as the cursed items in morrowind, the Tribunal using permenant Daedra as guards for their Temple shrines, the Daedroth who you helped a Heroine kill also in morrowind. I don't even know how Conjuration will even occur in Skyrim since spell casting is Contextual but what we are talking about can be applied in a series of steps...how in depth that will be I hope is significant.

In Morrowind and Oblivion, there were timed summon spells. In Skyrim, there are flamethrower-type spells. Would it be that much of a stretch to imagine players continually using their magicka to keep summons bound to them when they can already do the same with fire?

If a Daedra can be bound to a small item with the use of a soul gem, why can't they be bound to a person using their own body as an anchor instead (by continually using magicka)? Grand Soul Gems and Black Soul Gems have both the same capacity, so it isn't as though using regular soul gems provides a far more powerful source for enchantment. The same goes for items. Just try thinking of it as a temporary self-enchantment.

I think all summons should be permanent, but your ability to control the summon is short. So, it will attack enemies and probably die. If it doesn't, it will attack you afterward if it doesn't like you. You then kill it or use the banish daedra spell. If you hide or cast invisibility, the summon goes and does whatever it wants, it has free will.

There's got to be some way of all the daedra permanently getting into nirn, and the magical ripcord they're tethered to now isn't very cool. Remember in Morrowind how they permanently summoned the scamp in that lady's house and it killed her? That's how conjuration becomes interesting. Don't raise more daedra than you can lay down.

You can do that anyway. If your skill is high enough, and you have enough magicka, and God knows if you have a fortifying ring or two, you can summon a Xivallai in Oblivion, have it stay for the full duration of an average fight, and go right back to blasting with your lightning and flames.

It isn't logical that they would constantly drain your magicka. That would void the nature of it being a lasting summons. What MIGHT be feasible is for it to damage your willpower by one point, or something of that nature, reflecting the will required to maintain control of it. This too seems like a potentially excessive restriction, but it makes more sense.

Alternately, and more reasonably still, all of your casting might function at a slight decrease. Say 95 to 99% effectiveness, rather than the full 100%, as might happen if you were wearing iron gauntlets on your hands. This would reflect the constant distraction of exerting some will on the Daedra. The higher your conjouration skill, and the higher your intelligence, willpower, and related magical skills, the less significant this effect should be. A Journeyman Conjourer who has counjoured a Dremora Lord or an Aureal/Golden Saint, for example, might have all their spells function at only 70%, whilst a Master Conjourer would have all spells still function at 90%, and a Master of all five major schools of magic might have spell function at 99% or have no noticable effect at all on their casting.

:read: :deal: :grad: :trophy: :tops: Well stated sir.

I agree with a lot of your other stuff but I take issue here.

To me, this is akin to if a player had trained their character to be really good at blocking and one handed sword-fighting with levels and perks focused on these two, and then you look at it and say: "sword fighters can't simply block therefore negating enemy damage and continually hack at an enemy with their most powerful weapons". Why not? The whole point is that they have essentially spent their levels to be able to do this. Same with summoning/destruction.

A lot of summoners are built around the idea that they want to summon something to fight along side them, and it makes sense to use magic with your summons. It's often not so you can sit there while the summon can fight for you. Particularly in these examples since we're speaking about summoning one deadra. If your deadra can fight for you in low level areas, so what? That's the point. And in the high level areas where there are lots of strong deadra your summon would be underpowered if you were unable to cast many spells and call on your abilities.

I'm all for making sure conjurer's aren't overpowered, but we seemed to be approaching this purely from a 'lets penalize the player' perspective and therefore potetially damaging common, enjoyable play styles. I don't like this way of dealing with the problem.

what a great idea
+1
you could make this really deep, like a ritual to bind them, not taking extremely long but if you want a permanent follower (at least, until it dies) you should putt some effort into that
edit: ahh i see this has already been discussed, i was just stating the obvious

Well, I meant it in the sense that it can be summoned for as long as it's physical body can remain. Nothing is eternally permanent, as everything is constantly changing, but one example are the Daedra found in old Daedric ruins. They were summoned "permanently" and will only return to Oblivion when they're physical manifestation is destroyed. I do understand now what you're saying; a Daedra's soul cannot be bound to Mundus, only a physical manifestation of it. Once the physical manifestation is destroyed, it's soul will return to Oblivion. However, Daedra being as powerful as they are, it is possible for a "permanently" summoned Daedra to remain in Mundus indefinitely so long as it can avoid having it's physical body destroyed, as their is no actual time limit on such a summon. Most of the time this sort of summon would require a ritual to bind the Daedra to a certain object, but not always. I think it was Tel Fyr (I'm bad with names) who had a permanently summoned Dremora with him in his home in Morrowind. So long as his physical manifestation remained in tact, he would stay in Mundus. I believe this is the kind of summoning that the OP was talking about, and I do think it would be a nice skill for high-level conjurors, though I do think it should require an extensive and difficult ritual to perform such a summoning.

i think it should be like that awesome yet obscure indie game series geneforge(pronounced gene-forge not jen-ne-forge like i once thought) in that game you play as a shaper(they are like humans but they are born with the ability to gain magical powers like wizards and muggles from harry potter) and one of the central parts of the game is shaping creations to fight for you, basically if your max magicka(which is i think what they called it) is 6 and your current is 4, and the creature you summon costs 2, you'll go 4/6 -> 4/4 you can also customize your creation(stronger stats for a higher cost) and you cant gain back your magicka until the creature dies or is reabsorbed, the stronger the creature and the better the stats the more magicka is required

that is what it should be for the elder scrolls, the cost of summoning daedra is taken from your magicka pool's max and isnt allowed to be regained until the creature is dead, you can add stats for a higher cost but a stronger creature, stronger creatures cost more, oh and in geneforge your creations have a chance to go rouge mid battle and start attacking you and when your skill in creating that creature is high enough you get a stronger version(again like in geneforge)

what does everyone think of this idea?

actually you might not get a good feel of what im talking about til you play a game, google it and download the demo for a glimpse of what im talking about(you get like half the game free in the demo) or hope that it isnt so obscure that you cant find vids of it

but if you do have a good idea of what im talking about disregard that unless you want to play it

I think thats a sixy idea and should definently apply if we have something along the lines of familiars, see when you summon a daedra and it dies, thats it...lore wise anyway its soul wanders oblivion until its picked up by another plane so unless you have that particular Daedra bound to an object, like for say some of the Daedric weapons in Oblivion ARE actual Daedra and haven't been banished, then they wont come back to you. but Familiars and the stronger Daedra you reach for should definently take a greater pool, you get out what you put in right?

The problem with this idea is that it's too punishing to the player. Think about it: What magic user, who probably only spends 10% of his time in actual battle, would choose to have his magicka pool permanently stunted, just to have a creature follow them around when they don't need it 90% of the time? In other words, a 60 or 90 second summon that leaves the max magicka the same would be much more desirable for most situations.

good for the highest level conjuration perk, this would be...

you mean like the magic users in geneforge? i dont play strictly magic users but i hear they end up being the strongest/easiest

Aye I hear you, but im directing this towards more permanent Summons, Summoning Daedra, and Permenantly summoning them are two different bits.

I feel perma summmons need rituals preformed rather than the normal ripping them away from what they are doing, bringing them in the heat of battle and through the mechanics of summoning giving them a vague idea of whos friend and foe. as well as having that particular perma summon being stronger than normal and dynamic in command obedience and being alot more useful than "pwn my enemies now nave"

they could be ordered to guard an area, or summon when an enemy steps over a Conjuration trap giving you early warning or reprieve...or just setting up a trap of awesomeness.

Dyn Fivrth (check spelling), Arkved and Fathis Arnen had towers filled with "Permanently" bound to Nirn Daedra. I think there should be a high threshold for being ABLE to permenantly bind a Daedra, just as there are high thresholds for casting certain types of spells, for enchanting, for mending enchanted armour, for being able to command members of guilds to accompany you places (the perk of guild Mastery) etc, etc. But once that threshold is reached, aside from intricate ritual and a temporary drain of magicka, perhaps a major drain, at the moment of summoning, I think drastic permenant handicaps on the player for are both excessively punitive, and contrary to the lore and preveious in game lore. Once you become Archmage, or Listner/Speaker, or Grey Prince etc. you don't have to sacrifice anything to have one of these reasonably capable AI companions follow you around everywhere doing your bidding, and the summoned Daedra should not be drastically different.

A single summoned Daedra is not going to overpower a mage any more than they are already overpowered. A powerful mage could easily, for battle purposes, summon a temporary Daedra, fight with full magical attacks, and summon another Daedra when the first elapsed. It isn't all that difficult actually. The Permenant Daedra would be much more for immersions sake, and for the purpose of making a wizardic character feel truly sorcerous and arcane, on as mighty as if not mightier than other conjourors found in the games, than it would be for any significant battle benefits. As such, it would be unfair and semi-pointless to levy heavy tolls on players for such summons, beyond the rituals and level requirements. One of the Oblivion DLCs allows for a permenantly summoned Frost Atronach. The broader feature should be essentially like that, only with a much more expansive host of Daedric types to choose from.

Im just looking for more indept aspects of Magicka and summoning in TES, than the spamming cast button we've all grown use to. there are some amazing depictions of steps and details concerning sorcery and summoning but we never experience this. just pressing a button

I am all for the steps. I think they add to the immersion and flavour. I just don't like the notion some people are putting forward, of punishment almost for punishments sake, where something that, once the proper rituals are enacted, should act like something of a perk, is being turned into the sort of thing that would be more headache than anything else. The requirements should be, "you must be at least a journeyman of conjouration, you must use at least two grand soul gems, a bottle of human blood, a daedric artifact or item (Daedra heart, scamp skin, Daedra Silk for example) or be in the vicinity of a Daedric Shrine or Oblivion Gate, casting will deplete 90% of your magicka for 1 day, and may cause you to lapse into a 3 day sleep. Your Magicka regeneration may be slightly slowed while the summons endures Etc."

THEY SHOULD NOT BE "if you cast this, your magicka will be reduced by half permenantly, until the Daedra is dismissed, and you can no longer cast that 90 point lightning bolt you like so much."

I'd use your idea and run with it, do steps, maybe a quest or two concerning it and gain a perk and boom everyone is happy?

yes! and this could be blood magic or necromancy

Multiple summons, no 'punishment' other than the Magicka it took to summon them.

But it would of course be until it died. This would not work if the daedra just respawned again and again

Gotta' Bind them all!

Right. In order to gain a new one, you would have to perform the ritual over.