A bit of perspective as to why SOME of us complain about Sky : V - Skyrim

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:01 pm

You speak the truth. Of course, those of us form the older generation of TES games are automatically trolls with invalid opinions. Sad but true.

Though it's great that EVERY single problem we brought up, that we were called oblivion bashing trolls for, prior to Skyrim's release, turned out to be 100% accurate. "Optional" fast travel is terrible. Why on earth are these stables so goddam far from the towns? Why do so many towns lack them? Even some holds with jarls? Voiced Dialogue DID severely limit unique quests. The game WAS tailored for use with quest markers. I DID have to travel across the map for various quests. We DID end up with severely limited forms of armour/weaponry.

Next time, don't put your fingers in your ears and yell "LALALALA" next time someone has an opposing opinion, mkay?

I know right, all the people who endlessly troll the SKYRIM forum DEMANDING it should have been Morrowind 2 are the victims here. Not the agitators. Not at all.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:19 am

Okey, first I have to say I see a Lot of complaining about this new patch, bugs etc etc. I definitely understand why people would complain about that, but that is not why I would complain. I can live with bugs.

Summary is the main point, the other information helps to explain it. Its not actually a spoiler, just hiding the information.

Spoiler

I played TES a while back.. (though I never cared enough to actually come to forums until recently) Starting with Daggerfall, but never really got into it, as a kid I wasnt allowed much time on the computer.

Then I played Morrowind, but since I was a poor student I played it on Xbox. I loved it. Must have spent the majority of my time owning an Xbox playing MW. The graphics, to me, were awesome. The world felt like A WORLD. Sure, it got a bit too drawn out sometimes and I needed to take a break every so often.. but it almost felt like a second life. I started to find that some places felt safe, and more like home because I used them as a 'base of operations' or whatever. Coming back to Sayda Neen(spelling) was like.. going home to stay with Mum or something. I got to know my way around the silt striders, and it made me feel more like I was becoming part of the society (like when you get to know the Subway lines in Stockholm or whatever, you know, a local that people can ask questions). I also really LOVEDhow unique I could make my character. Face wise? Not so much. Skills, Weapons, Armour, Spells? Hell Freeking Yes. I could make the character feel fleshed out and detailed. The best thing for me though, was that the world felt like a Real place. At level 1 on my first playthrough, due to not being an experienced elder scrolls player, I tried to treat it like... well every other game I play. Like a game. Didnt work. I started to feel scared while exploring, because some stuff is crazy hard. Kinda like Giants in Skyrim, but you dont know what they are, and they continue being hard for a long time. But I COULD face them at my level, and if I won, then I would get rewards which recognised my effort. It was Sweet! Quests & Markers etc.. Dont even get me started.

Anyway I guess I'll stop about MW. I didn't play much of Oblivion, suffice to say, it didnt have that same feeling AT ALL. Leading me around everywhere.. either I fast travel or spend all week walking across from one side of the map to another (no in game fast travel!!!), No sense of progression.. and an actual NEED to sit there and grind skills in order to be better than NPCs when you level up.. wtf.

Skyrim. I like it. Its fun. For another gaming series I'd be over the moon. This isn't another series though, its TES. To me, the last remaining RPG series. Sure there's Mass Effect.. I dunno what else I dont play games enough anymore to know but, they arent the same. Linear. Painfully so. TES was the last series that built a really in depth open RPG. So while I enjoy the game, I am disappointed. Very disappointed. When I heard that they had taken away some of the level scaling, I freeking over the moon! I heard it had a more Morrowind feel I almost threw a party. In game fast travel? Wohoooo!!!! Can turn off the HUD? Yippeeee!!! Etc.

Turns out that the loot is scaled to [censored].

Turns out the in game fast travel is a crock. Still better than none though!

Turns out you can make the HUD invisible. (what if I wana shoot a bow? I just want the enemy markers, cave/point of interest markers and quest markers off)

Guess what? Aswell as that they took away so much of the coustomization. I am prepared to bet that almost all well built sword and board warriors have almost exactly the same perks. Their armour? pretty much the same.

Spells. Forget it. My mage lasted 1 day.

Bleh whatever. I'm not going to go on and on. More.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say, is that Skyrim is a great game. It has many, many improvements over the old games. The thing is though, you expect that from a game which is 5 or 10 years newer. What Skyrim isn't, is the game it should have been, as a TES game. The reason us 'old crusties' complain about this is, there is Nowhere else for us to go, other than back to P&P or replaying old games. You newer players can go to your RPG Hybreds, to your FPS games whatever.. but those of us who want a Pure RPG, are out of luck. TES used to be the last RPG series for us, but now that it's changed, we have nowhere left to go. So yes, I will be complaining about the streamlining.

the funny thing is i absoulutly wouldnt call this a pure rpg at all its barely got any role play in it even forza has leveling up........ i consider skyrim more of a first person hack n slash dungeun crawl compared to mass effect dragons age kotor final fantacy before 13 all those games have alot more story and actual role play in them...... in skyrim i wouldve said 90% of the game is spent hack and slash in dungouns...... mass effect is probably 85% role play 15% action have you even played it

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:39 am

I know right, all the people who endlessly troll the SKYRIM forum DEMANDING it should have been Morrowind 2 are the victims here. Not the agitators. Not at all.

:rolleyes:

Morrowind 2? What?

Wait, let me do the exact same thing!

All the people endlessly trolling the Bethesda forum DEMANDING it should have been Oblivion 2 are the victims here. Not the agitators. Not at all.

Am I smart now?

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:11 am

Go back to Morrowind, you won't be missed. The world moves on and tries new things, you don't - thats fine. Peace kiddo

Oh, the irony.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:33 am

Go back to Morrowind, you won't be missed. The world moves on and tries new things, you don't - thats fine. Peace kiddo

It would be an empty dull world if one could not aspire to re-experience something one has experienced before but in a new way.

People wanted more of what they got in Morrowind just with new stories and a fresh setting in Oblivion, and in Skyrim people wanted more of what they got in Morrowind and in some cases Oblivion, again simply with new stories and a fresh setting to tell them in. The last two games did not offer that but in many cases offered a lot of change instead.

To take a radical change for an example if TES:VI got released in 5 years from now as a rail-shooter (like Time Crisis), would you just say "Go back to Skyrim, you won't be missed. The world moves on and tries new things, you don't - thats fine. Peace kiddo" to yourself if you had bought it expecting something more like Skyrim ?

For some people the change from Skyrim to a simple rail shooter is not so far from the change from Morrowind to Skyrim. And it's not something that couldn't happen (look at the Fable series) if the game took wrong turns often enough.

In any case I shouldn't even be answering if you can't come up with something more constructive than that for this sort of a discussion.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:22 am

i dont think its nostalgia at all and im a ob fan first (played mw first). my friend started the series with oblivion i lent him mw for the xbox and although he loves it he likes ob way more. it may have to do with in some cases it being alot of peoples first rpg. it also has to do with that feeling of it being your first tes game. i damn well understand the upset reaction some of the people who are labled as morrowhiners.its like crash bandicoot was for me a great introduction into platformers. the original was awesome, crash 2 was the best one, crash 3 warped was meh, then crash 4, was garbage . i kinda understand if people feel skyrim is watered down. luckily for me ratchet and clank has never svcked(so platformers havent been ruined for me)

i dont feel bothered that many people think oblivion was the holy grail of feces . its the same problem with skyrim, they used so much damn media attention and hyped up the game that for some people,mabye not others , it kinda ruined the mystery, the imagination, the inner wonder. like did we have to hear so much about the features in the game ?. when mw came out there werent a bazillion videos talking about its feature mabye a magazine article at the most, and for me at least ob was under the radar and i barely even found out about. i love skyrim but theres no denying it doesnt hit you with that feel of wonder the other to games did for me, like seeing an ogre the first time,fighting skeleton champions, seeing a stilt strider the first time and saying "WHOA TF IS THAT".... all of that feeling goes out the door with skyrim.........you add all the bugs glitches and balance issues....and well......is it a suprise people are pissed?

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:04 am

:rolleyes:

Morrowind 2? What?

Wait, let me do the exact same thing!

All the people endlessly trolling the Bethesda forum DEMANDING it should have been Oblivion 2 are the victims here. Not the agitators. Not at all.

Am I smart now?

No your just being obtuse and passing it off as clever. No one comes to the Behtesda board demanding Skyrim be oblivion 2. No one. However, people like yourself and the OP, miss the Bethesda general forum, instead get lost in the Skyrim forum, then demand it be a morrowind clone with HD graphics. No voice acting, no dragons, no perks, no fast travel, no quest assistance, no economy improvements, no dual weild, no new spell types, no shouts, gives us exactly what morrowind had, bit for bit, without ANY changes. Thats all you want. Thank god the developers disagreed. But hey its not like Morrowind isnt easily pirated and then modded to your hearts content, go do that. You want a pure rehash with no new changes except to the textures, not surprisingly, others do not.

You may leave now.

BTW you will reply, and I will ignore whatever it is you say. Later.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:33 pm

No voice acting - Nope. Just want another installation disc for the voices.
no dragons - Who said this?
no perks - Who said this?
no fast travel - As you can see, the alternative is VERY bad
no quest assistance - Yes. Why would WANT to be told how to do your quests? Isn't the fun in the challenge?
no economy improvements - Who said this?
no dual weild - Who said this?
no new spell types - Who said this?
no shouts - Who said this?

Seriously, Hardly anything you've said is valid here. I don't think I've EVER saw anyone against those I've stated. I've only ever saw arguements (That make perfect sense and are brush aside as trolls) about two of this list.

But hey its not like Morrowind isnt easily pirated and then modded to your hearts content, go do that.

And this is the new audience Bethesda want. Not good. Not at all.

BTW you will reply, and I will ignore whatever it is you say. Later.

This is why you have no substance in your argument. "I'm right. I'm leaving because everyone else is a troll."

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:03 am

lol its sad that it sometimes feels like morrowind fans are the dad skyrim fans are the mom and oblivion fans are the small child in between terrified at the fighting......i do remeber what went down before the game came out its true aloooot of what the said "bashers" were saying came true no denying that but damn......lol i feel like a frightened child

bliviongate:

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:53 pm

This is also why we won't have anything like Morrowind again, the average TES player these days can't even read text equivalent to half a page from a real book before giving up. Morrowind had many pages worth of text and we can't have that in spoken dialogue since the sound files would be huge.

So true, but it's more like people can't handle more than a short sentence or two (doesn't seem to matter if it's text or spoken)
For example: A friend of mine often skips alot/most of the dialogue even in skyrim "to get to the real game" then gets confused as he doesn't know what he needs to do for the quest he just got.. Which results in him getting frustrated with the game and give up with the quest. Or if I'm around, end up asking me what to do etc.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:58 am

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but just a few points that needed to be precised.

Quests & Markers etc.. Dont even get me started.

Morrowind forums were spammed with "Where is the dwemer cube?!!??" and other "where is/do I" questions. In order to appeal to a greater number of customers, the quest markers and the compass were added. The main goal is to make the experience more fluid. The focus changes on the combats more than the searching. And it's been integrated in Skyrim to the point that you actually need them to know what to do because the Quest menu is very vague. Particularily Miscellaneous quests.

Turns out that the loot is scaled to [censored].

Morrowind loot and encounters were scaled too. Skyrim is not very different there : it's still scaled loot + some non-scaled artifacts at precise places of the world like in Morrowind. The real difference is the inclusion of armor in the loot tables. In Morrowind, only weapons would drop on high-end monsters. Armors were available on low/middle-end character ennemies, meaning a difficult access to the high-end armors (glass and ebony).

Turns out you can make the HUD invisible. (what if I wana shoot a bow? I just want the enemy markers, cave/point of interest markers and quest markers off)

If you are playing on console I don't know. Otherwise on PC it's pretty easy :
SkyrimPrefs.ini

[General]bShowFloatingQuestMarkers=0bShowQuestMarkers=0bShowCompass=0

I am prepared to bet that almost all well built sword and board warriors have almost exactly the same perks. Their armour? pretty much the same.

Not at all, particularily this example where some will go the Heavy Armor road, others will use the Light Armor and some will switch after a while. Even if that's not that relevant, the simple fact that you can train any skill means two similar templates won't have the same skills and perks. We are often talking about the simplification of the gameplay in Skyrim, but there it isn't true. You can choose the perks you want from a skill when in previous game, they were imposed.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:52 am

hm i know that the spoken text indeed held back the quests but uh i wouldnt have minded if they came out with an optional feature(impossible now, hope for the future)
for my part in this i wouldnt have minded the oblivion style voice work with the voices FROM skyrim instead though but yeah there should always be an option.....sigh....no one cares to make it an option though :shakehead:

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:49 pm

I respect your nostalgia about a game that you clearly enjoyed; however, games move on and gamers do too. A point to remember is that you were much younger when you played MW and it sounds as though it was your first 'special' game. All is flux; and that means that you cannot step into the same river twice.

But I must take issue with your claim that Mass Effect is an RPG. I simply cannot agree on that.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:00 pm

I absolutely agree on a lot of the points, and concur that I'm saddened to lose so many things.

It makes me slightly uneasy thou that people think their statistics make their character. Its part of it, but really, your character is defined by the setting, dialogue choice (failed by Skyrim on this part) and what YOU put into the character.

A roleplaying game is as much about the freedom to approach the world from a invented personality, as it is from the ability to approach the world from a set of numbers. Morrowinds great success was in combining the two, not just the numbers. To deride Skyrim because it dropped the numbers, unfairly dismisses the well constructed setting and freedoms.

I hope people remember this a little more clearly which is why I ended up leaving it as my sig, since its central to a lot of discussions.

My main issue with Skyrim is the lack of choice. My only real choice is in what order I will complete quest chains. That's it. And really for a role playing game that isn't good enough. Why does my character have no say over what he does? Most of the time all I can do is say yes to a quest or not do it at all. I wouldn't mind so much if the quest lines were interesting but most of them are copy and pasted garbage full of cliches. The only quest line I'm enjoying is the Dark Brotherhood and I've only had one instance (in the entire game actually, not just with the DB) where I've had a legitimate choice to make that I know will (well hope will) have an affect on the outcome of the story

Skyrim in reality is a load of different, totally linear quest lines that you can complete in any order but devoid of any roleplaying aspects. Unless your character is a yes man you're in for immersion killer after immersion killer. the fact that people and world don't even react to what you do in the quest lines is abysmal.

I am having tons of fun with the game because of the sheer amount of content but honestly it feels like one really talented team made the world, creatures and lore and a bunch of gimps put everything else together. Skyrim could've been the best game ever but in reality it's just the biggest game ever

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:19 pm

ah, there we go: here are the people ignoring your post and just assuming youre a nostalgic whiner. bullet-dodged people, it wasnt an omen after all that people seemed to actually be reading and responding to the actual OP and not the title.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:58 am

I was complaining on Dragons being very very easy and far too frequent (edit : same magnitude as cliff racers), well now i am served on 1 point because i actually had to take 2 ultimate healing potions to survive last fight against an Ancient Dragon thanks to resists being borked (and me equipping only one sword to train up blocking).

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:25 am

I respect your nostalgia about a game that you clearly enjoyed; however, games move on and gamers do too.

"Things change."
"Not always for the better..."

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:24 am

"Things change."
"Not always for the better..."

Yet those 'things' are mostly subjective? The OP pointed to the same list of perceived defects that can be found throughout the forum; the difference being, largely, that the comparisons were made to MW in particular. Like I said, I respect their opinion but see little use in looking backward.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:18 am

Well, some posts were valid opinions, and I wont bring them up - but I do often disagree. Some need to be corrected slightly on what I ment, and Some probably wouldn't have been written if the person read all of what I said. Ohwell. A general thing though, No I dont want Morrowind 2, I want TES 5, not TES5 for dummies. I'm not trying to act better, each type of gamer can have whatever kind of game they want.. its just the fact that TES was pretty much the last good RPG (with some other random ones here and there I guess, I dont know) so we cant just go to another game.

tbh i couldnt really understand why u wanted skyrim to be like morrowind, which seems to be the case quite a bit, someone saying skyrim should be more like morrowind, without any other reason that the fact that it should. just thought i'd give my view on it.

I thought that I made it quite clear why I wanted it to be more like MW..

the funny thing is i absoulutly wouldnt call this a pure rpg at all its barely got any role play in it even forza has leveling up........ i consider skyrim more of a first person hack n slash dungeun crawl compared to mass effect dragons age kotor final fantacy before 13 all those games have alot more story and actual role play in them...... in skyrim i wouldve said 90% of the game is spent hack and slash in dungouns...... mass effect is probably 85% role play 15% action have you even played it

I dont believe that Skyrim is a Pure RPG. That's why I am saying I will complain about some features. I have played mass effect, I found it to be like an FPS with more dialogue and less realism. I liked it though, it was fun.

I respect your nostalgia about a game that you clearly enjoyed; however, games move on and gamers do too. A point to remember is that you were much younger when you played MW and it sounds as though it was your first 'special' game. All is flux; and that means that you cannot step into the same river twice.

But I must take issue with your claim that Mass Effect is an RPG. I simply cannot agree on that.

MW was not my first Good RPG. Fallout 1 & 2, BG1&2 were also games I enjoyed. There were probably more, but those are the ones I remember. I just used MW as an example due to it being TES also.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:30 am

Neverwinter nights, look it up - probably still some respectable PW's knocking about too.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:42 pm

Edit, decided not to flame a particular person.

I played NWN but never really got into it, not sure why.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:35 am

Neverwinter nights, look it up - probably still some respectable PW's knocking about too.

Yeah they are still going strong. NWN2 is my own personal favourite RPG -- not happy at all about NWN3 going all MMO :sadvaultboy:

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:13 am

MW was not my first Good RPG. Fallout 1 & 2, BG1&2 were also games I enjoyed. There were probably more, but those are the ones I remember. I just used MW as an example due to it being TES also.

Well they were all very good games too. Not my personal favourites but very good none the less.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:22 pm

Well they were all very good games too. Not my personal favourites but very good none the less.

Fair enough! Each to his own though, and thats what means different game devalopers get different fan bases I guess.. Haha.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:14 am

Yeah they are still going strong. NWN2 is my own personal favourite RPG -- not happy at all about NWN3 going all MMO :sadvaultboy:

I was heavy (too heavy) into NWN, never did find a good home for the second one.

Hadn't heard about the third....well,,,the only people I'd trust to make that work at bioware, maybe its not all bad.