A bit of perspective as to why SOME of us complain about Sky : V - Skyrim

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:56 am

I'm Swedish, sorry!! I will try fix it when I get back.

No excuse. While in Munich I had the pleasure of sharing several beers with a couple of Swedes who spoke better English than I do - even after the beer

.

J/K of course.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:36 am

To the OP: you may want to play Risen 2 when it comes out. The guys at Piranha Bytes have always had an eye for realism / common sense and superb world design in their games (Gothic). Or Two Worlds 2 while we're at it. Of course the latter is a TES ripoff, but when the copycats do things better than the originals that should get you thinking.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:33 pm

You were younger when Morrowind came out. We perceive things differently as we age. You can't expect the same series of games to continue to appeal to you in the same way again and again, over the course of nearly 20 years.

I think Skyrim is more like Morrowind than a lot of Morrowind vets are prepared to admit, myself included.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:02 am

I never could really stand to play Oblivion long enough to finish it, yet about two months ago I just finished playing Morrowind and all of the expansions again (with graphical enhancements of course). The worst thing about Morrowind was the combat, but honestly nothing has truly changed since then other than Archery. But anyway, it's not nostalgia at all. It's simply a much better game.

I must be mnisunderstanding. You honestly think nothing has changed about combat in the last two games. Statement is beyound understanding.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:53 am

You were younger when Morrowind came out. We perceive things differently as we age. You can't expect the same series of games to continue to appeal to you in the same way again and again, over the course of nearly 20 years.

I think Skyrim is more like Morrowind than a lot of Morrowind vets are prepared to admit, myself included.

No it's not. Some marks of a great RPG are always:

1) Complex and lengthy story
2) Rewarding loot
3) Interesting combat
4) Meaningful character development

Skyrim is far, far inferior to Morrowind in at least 3 of these 4 points. Sword & Shield fighting and stealth are probably superior in Skyrim.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:31 pm

Okey, first I have to say I see a Lot of complaining about this new patch, bugs etc etc. I definitely understand why people would complain about that, but that is not why I would complain. I can live with bugs.

Summary is the main point, the other information helps to explain it. Its not actually a spoiler, just hiding the information.

Spoiler

I played TES a while back.. (though I never cared enough to actually come to forums until recently) Starting with Daggerfall, but never really got into it, as a kid I wasnt allowed much time on the computer.

Then I played Morrowind, but since I was a poor student I played it on Xbox. I loved it. Must have spent the majority of my time owning an Xbox playing MW. The graphics, to me, were awesome. The world felt like A WORLD. Sure, it got a bit too drawn out sometimes and I needed to take a break every so often.. but it almost felt like a second life. I started to find that some places felt safe, and more like home because I used them as a 'base of operations' or whatever. Coming back to Sayda Neen(spelling) was like.. going home to stay with Mum or something. I got to know my way around the silt striders, and it made me feel more like I was becoming part of the society (like when you get to know the Subway lines in Stockholm or whatever, you know, a local that people can ask questions). I also really LOVEDhow unique I could make my character. Face wise? Not so much. Skills, Weapons, Armour, Spells? Hell Freeking Yes. I could make the character feel fleshed out and detailed. The best thing for me though, was that the world felt like a Real place. At level 1 on my first playthrough, due to not being an experienced elder scrolls player, I tried to treat it like... well every other game I play. Like a game. Didnt work. I started to feel scared while exploring, because some stuff is crazy hard. Kinda like Giants in Skyrim, but you dont know what they are, and they continue being hard for a long time. But I COULD face them at my level, and if I won, then I would get rewards which recognised my effort. It was Sweet! Quests & Markers etc.. Dont even get me started.

Anyway I guess I'll stop about MW. I didn't play much of Oblivion, suffice to say, it didnt have that same feeling AT ALL. Leading me around everywhere.. either I fast travel or spend all week walking across from one side of the map to another (no in game fast travel!!!), No sense of progression.. and an actual NEED to sit there and grind skills in order to be better than NPCs when you level up.. wtf.

Skyrim. I like it. Its fun. For another gaming series I'd be over the moon. This isn't another series though, its TES. To me, the last remaining RPG series. Sure there's Mass Effect.. I dunno what else I dont play games enough anymore to know but, they arent the same. Linear. Painfully so. TES was the last series that built a really in depth open RPG. So while I enjoy the game, I am disappointed. Very disappointed. When I heard that they had taken away some of the level scaling, I freeking over the moon! I heard it had a more Morrowind feel I almost threw a party. In game fast travel? Wohoooo!!!! Can turn off the HUD? Yippeeee!!! Etc.

Turns out that the loot is scaled to [censored].

Turns out the in game fast travel is a crock. Still better than none though!

Turns out you can make the HUD invisible. (what if I wana shoot a bow? I just want the enemy markers, cave/point of interest markers and quest markers off)

Guess what? Aswell as that they took away so much of the coustomization. I am prepared to bet that almost all well built sword and board warriors have almost exactly the same perks. Their armour? pretty much the same.

Spells. Forget it. My mage lasted 1 day.

Bleh whatever. I'm not going to go on and on. More.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say, is that Skyrim is a great game. It has many, many improvements over the old games. The thing is though, you expect that from a game which is 5 or 10 years newer. What Skyrim isn't, is the game it should have been, as a TES game. The reason us 'old crusties' complain about this is, there is Nowhere else for us to go, other than back to P&P or replaying old games. You newer players can go to your RPG Hybreds, to your FPS games whatever.. but those of us who want a Pure RPG, are out of luck. TES used to be the last RPG series for us, but now that it's changed, we have nowhere left to go. So yes, I will be complaining about the streamlining.

+1

I agree 100%. I also will not stop fighting for a pure TES RPG.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:08 pm

No it's not. Some marks of a great RPG are always:

1) Complex and lengthy story
2) Rewarding loot
3) Interesting combat
4) Meaningful character development

Skyrim is far, far inferior to Morrowind in at least 3 of these 4 points. Sword & Shield fighting and stealth are probably superior in Skyrim.

I'm talking about the way you perceive it. What would have been complex and lengthy to a 15 year-old is not always going to be complex and lengthy to a 25 year-old, and certainly not to a 35 year-old.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:36 am

I couldnt say it better myself.
Its a terrible shame what happened to customisation and depth.
(Most NPC's might as well be cardboard, they feel like puppets, they are painfully there only for me, repeating the same line over and over just because Im smithing next to him.)

There is a severy lack of diversity in friendly and hostile NPC's.
There are too many Nords, and only a handful of Khajit and Argonians. Every cave is filled with bandits or draugr, it feels like Im playing a zombie game sometimes. Where are the daedra?

We went from 20+ customising slots in Daggerfall to 6 in Skyrim.
This cannot be a good thing under any circumstance.

What happened to magic is simply unforgivable.

Now Skyrim has many good points, and it is an excellent dungeon crawler.
But so much has been streamlined, removed or dumbed down that it hardly feels like a TES game anymore.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:05 am

No it's not. Some marks of a great RPG are always:

1) Complex and lengthy story
2) Rewarding loot
3) Interesting combat
4) Meaningful character development

Skyrim is far, far inferior to Morrowind in at least 3 of these 4 points. Sword & Shield fighting and stealth are probably superior in Skyrim.

Well as a Morrowind vet myself, I guess we'll agree to disagree because most of that is pretty subjective. Personaly I think Morrowind is seen by many through rose colored glasses and the bar is now set way above what the actuals content in Morrowind is.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:58 am

Thats great, skimmed through the post but I assume you're just justifying complainers making babies out of themselves.

Nope, no need to make a baby out of yourself, you can complain in a more civilized manor rather then go about saying "OMG glitch got me killed Bevesda wurst game developar evar".

Its a real drag to see non civilized complainers..After all they managed to drive me away from several games so far, they are a real downer.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:39 am

I think the complaining is a bit extreme, but I see valid points as well. The tone of some though is too dramatic for my tastes, but that's just a personal thing. I don't care for emotional pleas in general.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:22 am

Thanks for the replies, its nice to see others who share my point of view!

I will try the games (gothic etc)..

Slightly confused though,

Thats great, skimmed through the post but I assume you're just justifying complainers making babies out of themselves.

Nope, no need to make a baby out of yourself, you can complain in a more civilized manor rather then go about saying "OMG glitch got me killed Bevesda wurst game developar evar".

Its a real drag to see non civilized complainers..After all they managed to drive me away from several games so far, they are a real downer.

Um what? This was never even close to about glitches.. ?

And

I think the complaining is a bit extreme, but I see valid points as well. The tone of some though is too dramatic for my tastes, but that's just a personal thing. I don't care for emotional pleas in general.

Fair enough.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:41 am

Fair enough.

Actually, I haven't even noticed you make points like I'm alluding to. Other than nostalgia for thee oldskool RPGs (I'm not making fun of that.. I'm in my 30s. I've played a lot of old games myself).

I'm talking more about some of the posts here border on people's lives being ruined.. or something. "The sky is falling!" (or is it, "Skyrim is falling"?). This is what I don't understand. For their own sake, they should get a grip. I wish I could I dig up this one clip that I used to float around.. from this Counterstrike kid who called Valve for Customer Support. He completely lost it, made extreme conclusions out of small problems, and started crying on the line.. and this what some people almost sound like.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:01 am

Actually, I haven't even noticed you make points like I'm alluding to. Other than nostalgia for thee oldskool RPGs (I'm not making fun of that.. I'm in my 30s. I've played a lot of old games myself).

I'm talking more about some of the posts here border on people's lives being ruined.. or something. "The sky is falling!" (or is it, "Skyrim is falling"?). This is what I don't understand. For their own sake, they should get a grip. I wish I could I dig up this one clip that I used to float around.. from this Counterstrike kid who called Valve for Customer Support. He completely lost it, made extreme conclusions out of small problems, and started crying on the line.. and this what some people almost sound like.

Sorry maybe its due to being my second language, but I dont quite understand. You're saying I haven't made any good points and yet saying I'm not whining. Im slightly confused. What is there left? Haha.

I felt that my post achieved its purpose, which was to try to help people understand WHY some of us argue that Skyrim could have been better in a lot of ways.. Maybe I didnt explain what I thought clearly.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:16 am

Sorry maybe its due to being my second language, but I dont quite understand. You're saying I haven't made any good points and yet saying I'm not whining. Im slightly confused. What is there left? Haha.

I felt that my post achieved its purpose, which was to try to help people understand WHY some of us argue that Skyrim could have been better in a lot of ways.. Maybe I didnt explain what I thought clearly.

I'm not really talking about any of your specific points. You made a thread intending to speak for a majority ("why SOME of us complain"), so I'm commenting on that. Some of the complainers probably need to chill out. Have some fun elsewhere instead of burst a blood vessel over how this game isn't fulfilling all of their life wishes in one fell swoop.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:51 am

I used to be hardcoe about "pure RPGs" like you, then I took off my nostalgia goggles and grew up.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:55 am

TL DR? STOP BEING LAZY.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:31 am

I'm enjoying the game but I actually came into this game with pretty low expectations. I've put 91 hours into this game and I can't call any game that I've played for that long bad. But I'm surprised some people are crying bloody murder practically. Some people will just never learn to ignore hype I guess.

For me the elderscroll series is only as good as the mods that awesome people release.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:41 am

I do see where OP is coming from, honestly I do. I played Morrowind to death and got the same feelings as OP did about safe homes etc. Same as adventuring. But the only real point I agree with is the scaling. Scaling might be toned down compared to Oblivion, but walking into a dungeon in Morrowind and coming across some skeleton that can wipe you out in a single spell was actually huge fun. There are some moments like this early on at low levels in Skyrim, but now at 45, rarely do I come across enemies that pose a real threat to my sanity. I'm taking on the highest Draugr deathlord overlords with dual daggers, yet I'm a light armored sneaky archer who just fancies some points in one handers. And after so, the loot is kind of generic. I do miss wandering into a cave and finding some Deadric set at quite a low level. And then the safe home issue, I had Riften, Solitude and Whiterun as a home, I like a sturdy home that I feel would be hard to destroy or break in to. Solitude was ok, untill I saw Marketh, now everything I own (or dont) and my wife are in that home.

Rest of the point really dont make this game any less immersive than Morrowind for me, and I dont see the problem at all. Dont want quest markers? Deactivate the quest in your log! Ok places of interest will remain, not a huge deal, could just say your char can see those areas. Dont like fast travel? Dont use it! Simply use the horse and carts outside cities. Really quite simple, the games there to be played as you wish and at the same time, time saving content (because thats all fast travel and markers are) is still in there for us who want to get on with plundering dungeons and immersing into the narrative. All this talk from a minority of the sales figures about removing the functions (although OP wasnt saying this, was just trying to explain to others why), some are forgetting that a lot of us LIKE these functions. I must of seen only a hand full of posts suggesting a half way between both, being an option to turn it all off, the rest just want everyone to play the game they play, which goes very much against what TES is all about.

Thanks for your post though OP, explained some peoples frustrations well.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:56 am

I'm not really talking about any of your specific points. You made a thread intending to speak for a majority ("why SOME of us complain"), so I'm commenting on that. Some of the complainers probably need to chill out. Have some fun elsewhere instead of burst a blood vessel over how this game isn't fulfilling all of their life wishes in one fell swoop.

Ah yes makes sense. Well, I guess what I was trying to say, is that these are the reasons people feel this way without being agressive or frustrated.

I used to be hardcoe about "pure RPGs" like you, then I took off my nostalgia goggles and grew up.

Well, I dont see why me liking pure RPG's means I need to grow up. Its something I enjoy, and when I get the time to actually play a game, I want a game which I really do enjoy. I get really annoyed when people automatically assume I'm a specific type of person just because I like to play RPG's. I have no problems with who you are or what you do, just dont try to make yourself feel better by putting me down. Especially CoD players who think they're 'cool' because they're on their football team (in america or whatever) at school, and go on about how I must be a geek. I'm an 'enforcer' on my hockey team, spent over 100 mins in the penalty box. I play in a league nicknamed the Iron League (roughly translated) in Stockholm, its not a very high league but its rough. Thats another side to my life. So whatever, I'm enjoying myself. If you want me to grow up I'm going to say no. That being said, if I was someone who never played sports and played games all day, I'd still say no, because if that was what I enjoyed then leave me to do it.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:27 am

Thanks for your post though OP, explained some peoples frustrations well.

Thanks for your reply, I enjoyed reading it =).

You're right that its possible to do some of those things, and I do deactivate quest markers etc, its just with less information on quests it gets kind of silly. As I said, I still enjoy the game more than most games but I feel that TES should be more of an RPG.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:42 am

what i don't like about skyrim is the fact that you get treated like a god in flesh from the very fist second.

what i liked most about morrowind was the atmosphere this game had.
noone trusted you in the beginning.
you had to show everyone that you are really the nevarine. noone except gaius was with you.
many of the guildmembers didn't like you till you did like 10 quests for them.

what do we have in skyrim?
oh hey prisoner, i dont trust you, you are a criminal! damn you saved me mr god in flesh, talk to mr jarl.
hey, i'm mr jarl, you must be this [censored] hero ive been waiting for, can i please lick your boots?
ooh man watch out , the dragonborn is back to beat up some dragons!
-> this happens within about 45 minutes of gameplay.

same thing with thieves guild and compainions , you do like 1 little quest for them and everyone says you will be the next "superstar".

sure, they have to bring you in the "superstar" position faster because, compared to morrowind, the guilds/factions have a really really small amount of quests (like 7 each), which means there is less time to "hype" the charakter, but i still don't like it.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:59 pm

When I keep seeing "skills help me diversify my character!" normally I just not my head and agree. Just not when it comes to the Elder Scrolls.

When I'm in Fallout or Baldur's Gate or a real D&D game, skills do help diversify my character because once I start, I'm not going to be able to use other skills without some sort of real sacrifice. Compare it to TES, where the only limitation is that your non-main skills started lower, and that can be fixed easily with cash because every game has trainers. It almost encourages you to branch out - try completing a game without some method of lock-picking. They might start out "more unique" in Morrowind than in OB or Skyrim, but characters all end up pretty much the same way. At least with perks

Customizing Slots: Clothing under armor is just silly. You might get away with it for something like Leather, but most of the other armors? Good luck. I never used the armor part swap system so many people seem to have loved because 1) It's fairly immersion breaking (shockingly, armor pieces are designed to fit one particular suit of armor, not a completely different one) and 2) It just looked pretty silly in a lot of ways. The only case it ever made sense to me were the few sets that had slightly different pieces, like Bonemold.

VA and 'lack' of unique dialogue: I think a lot of people forget just how much stock phrases MW had. Everyone had a lot to talk about, granted, but it's because most phrases were shared by pretty much everyone.

Choice and questing: I'd be pretty interested to see how many quests in Morrowind allowed for variable solutions. It's been ages since I've done a real playthrough, but I'm not remembering it to be a huge amount.

Maturity: Can we please get rid of the "herp derp people are stupid they're dumbing it down because people are stupid and we're so superior because people are stupid" that every complaint thread seems to draw like flies? The OP didn't do this, but it sure attracted it. Most changes are due to things people say on the forums, not the type of gamer so many people love to whine about given the slightest chance. Quest icons? "I can't find that cave for MW's main quest!", Fast travel? "It's hard to find my way to a particular place", Skills removed "X is so useless!".

-----------------

At any rate, would I like to see some of the variety back? Sure, but only with some proper design decisions. Morrowind had silly things like someone skilled in Long Blade because they like to use a longsword completely unable to use a short sword that wasn't all that different.

(You'll note I don't use "complexity". Having a ton of skills and numbers alone does not make a game complex, as a ton of badly designed P&P games will attest to)

The main so-called losses seem to have been primarily weapon skills, and I'd wager that it's because of animations than any sinister desire to "dumb the game down" to sell it to the dreaded Call of Duty crowd. Morrowind's animations were very simple at best, animation has never been Bethesda's strong suit, and making something like a spear or polearm interesting in first person and not just "stab stab stab stab" would take some doing.

I'd like to see expansions introduce new weapon types, but it's not something Bethesda has ever done.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:33 am

I don't really "get" what you mean by RPG. For me it's always been a question of entering the universe. It's not necessarily about powergaming (which is actually pretty anti-RPG-ish) but about being able to make a decision about what you would do in a situation. Would you join this house or that, or be a thief or a mage, or such things. Most "it's not a REAL RPG" folks tend to want stuff that's more about the meta-game. Dice-rolling damage is not necessary to make an RPG, nor are unlevelled loot or those kinds of things. It's about making a decision and having it affect the rest of the game. Putting one faction or the other in charge of Skyrim is the essence of RPG. If all you care about are the "progression" and dice rolled damage, you may as well go to jRPGs where that's ALL that happens. They tell you your name, what you do, and why you're fighting. They tell you who you fall in love with as well. It's simple to find games like that, but most of them are on rails. If TES was the game that most of you say you want, the difference between it and Final Fantasy or possibly Suikoden (Suikoden is better IMO) would be negligable. You'd get to pick name, race, and class, but nothing else because giving you a real choice in the game would be game-breaking. You can't be a thief on the lam -- the game tells you that you're a Blitzball player. Why bother -- just google the FMVs and you've seen most of the content.

I'd rather have the computer handle the meta-game for the most part, and no it doesn't mean that I want to know if the PC is rolling a 1d20 to decide if I'll bash the skeever. I like the perks because unlike in Obliv and Morrowind, you have to actually make a few decisions about what type of character you are. People like to moan because they have to decide early on whether they'll ever shoot a bow? Still better than picking a class that makes all of those difficult decisions FOR YOU. It's kinda silly to suggest that a REAL rpg would be the one that has you pick a class in the beginning and then hold you to that forever, or that mindlessly choosing the stats that have the biggest multipliers is the "proper way" to play a character. No, it's about a real choice. And a real choice has a consequence to it. That's the fun part.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:52 am

I think the moaning and howling are a part of any good forum.
You want to be a bit carful about caring too much about any digital entertainment unless it is your work. These heart felt posts are a wee bit disturbing.

It is a game.
Many of us don't want the same thing over and over.