A bit of perspective as to why SOME of us complain about Sky

Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:34 am

Okey, first I have to say I see a Lot of complaining about this new patch, bugs etc etc. I definitely understand why people would complain about that, but that is not why I would complain. I can live with bugs.

Summary is the main point, the other information helps to explain it. Its not actually a spoiler, just hiding the information.
Spoiler

I played TES a while back.. (though I never cared enough to actually come to forums until recently) Starting with Daggerfall, but never really got into it, as a kid I wasnt allowed much time on the computer.

Then I played Morrowind, but since I was a poor student I played it on Xbox. I loved it. Must have spent the majority of my time owning an Xbox playing MW. The graphics, to me, were awesome. The world felt like A WORLD. Sure, it got a bit too drawn out sometimes and I needed to take a break every so often.. but it almost felt like a second life. I started to find that some places felt safe, and more like home because I used them as a 'base of operations' or whatever. Coming back to Sayda Neen(spelling) was like.. going home to stay with Mum or something. I got to know my way around the silt striders, and it made me feel more like I was becoming part of the society (like when you get to know the Subway lines in Stockholm or whatever, you know, a local that people can ask questions). I also really LOVEDhow unique I could make my character. Face wise? Not so much. Skills, Weapons, Armour, Spells? Hell Freeking Yes. I could make the character feel fleshed out and detailed. The best thing for me though, was that the world felt like a Real place. At level 1 on my first playthrough, due to not being an experienced elder scrolls player, I tried to treat it like... well every other game I play. Like a game. Didnt work. I started to feel scared while exploring, because some stuff is crazy hard. Kinda like Giants in Skyrim, but you dont know what they are, and they continue being hard for a long time. But I COULD face them at my level, and if I won, then I would get rewards which recognised my effort. It was Sweet! Quests & Markers etc.. Dont even get me started.

Anyway I guess I'll stop about MW. I didn't play much of Oblivion, suffice to say, it didnt have that same feeling AT ALL. Leading me around everywhere.. either I fast travel or spend all week walking across from one side of the map to another (no in game fast travel!!!), No sense of progression.. and an actual NEED to sit there and grind skills in order to be better than NPCs when you level up.. wtf.

Skyrim. I like it. Its fun. For another gaming series I'd be over the moon. This isn't another series though, its TES. To me, the last remaining RPG series. Sure there's Mass Effect.. I dunno what else I dont play games enough anymore to know but, they arent the same. Linear. Painfully so. TES was the last series that built a really in depth open RPG. So while I enjoy the game, I am disappointed. Very disappointed. When I heard that they had taken away some of the level scaling, I freeking over the moon! I heard it had a more Morrowind feel I almost threw a party. In game fast travel? Wohoooo!!!! Can turn off the HUD? Yippeeee!!! Etc.

Turns out that the loot is scaled to [censored].

Turns out the in game fast travel is a crock. Still better than none though!

Turns out you can make the HUD invisible. (what if I wana shoot a bow? I just want the enemy markers, cave/point of interest markers and quest markers off)

Guess what? Aswell as that they took away so much of the coustomization. I am prepared to bet that almost all well built sword and board warriors have almost exactly the same perks. Their armour? pretty much the same.

Spells. Forget it. My mage lasted 1 day.

Bleh whatever. I'm not going to go on and on. More.


Anyway, what I'm trying to say, is that Skyrim is a great game. It has many, many improvements over the old games. The thing is though, you expect that from a game which is 5 or 10 years newer. What Skyrim isn't, is the game it should have been, as a TES game. The reason us 'old crusties' complain about this is, there is Nowhere else for us to go, other than back to P&P or replaying old games. You newer players can go to your RPG Hybreds, to your FPS games whatever.. but those of us who want a Pure RPG, are out of luck. TES used to be the last RPG series for us, but now that it's changed, we have nowhere left to go. So yes, I will be complaining about the streamlining.


A post by someone who is obviously better at english & smarter than me, explaining it again - maybe more easy to understand. Thanks Kovacius!
Spoiler

The annoying and generally WRONG stereotype about the "nostalgia glasses" and "your first RPG" are intended to make any MW fan seem like they never played anything before MW, and can't stand anything that isn't exactly like it. It makes their own slanted and twisted argument sound more rational in their own minds, I suppose.

I had a couple of decades of game-playing before I played Morrowind, and have played numerous games since (most of them fairly complex Strategy or Empire-builders: HOI3, X3:TC, etc.). The things that made Morrowind, what little I've seen of Daggerfall, Fallout (the original), the very old d&D games (like Azure Bonds), Baldur's Gate, and many others entertaining was the sense of improvement and advancement, and giving you a feeling that what you were doing actually mattered. To me, having everything levelled and scaled, and having your status and accomplishments unrecognized and unremarked, while everyplace you go respawns and resets in 3 days or so (as in Oblivion) makes your presence and advancement pointless.

Technology should have made the "numbers" less visible: just play and let it happen. Instead, the numbers, and more importantly the meaning that those numbers represented, have been stripped from the game, or else rendered irrelevant by the simplified game mechanics and excessive scaling. Oblivion added perks, but made them mandatory at each 25 point skill increment; it REDUCED character diversity because every character had to take them at that point. Skyrim made the perks choosable, but removed Attributes from the game. Now, you now have perk trees instead of Attribute numbers, so you still have to manage it, and the Perks are in your face instead of the numbers. I don't see how that's "better", only "different".

I don't want "Morrowind 2.0", I want something BETTER, and definitely not more "simplistic". If that's "nostalgia glasses", I'm quite happy with this pair. I'm a lot less happy about the last two TES games.

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Sakura Haruno
 
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Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:23 pm

Great summary. Agree with pretty much everything you wrote. Forgot to emphasize this line

Turns out that the loot is scaled to [censored].


This alone has basically ruined the entire game for me.
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Pixie
 
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Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:20 am

Great summary. Agree with pretty much everything you wrote. Forgot to emphasize this line



This alone has basically ruined the entire game for me.


Thanks btw!

Yeh.. probably one of my least loved features. Hahah.
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NO suckers In Here
 
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Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:09 am

No complaints from me, strange but true.
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Rhysa Hughes
 
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Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:40 pm

prepare to have everyone read nothing but the title and scream at you for being a PC elitist whiner who despises everything about skyrim.

EDIT: so far no one has done what happens in every other thread like this... thats a pleasant surprise. i NEVER get pleasant surprises. watch yourself, fellow forumites, i think this is a bad omen...
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K J S
 
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Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:04 am

TL DR
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Iain Lamb
 
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Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:42 am

Not intentionally picking at this particular review, but why cant they be shorter like two or three paragraphs?

I just lose interest when I'm in a sea of blinding white text.
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Alex Blacke
 
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Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:18 am

Not intentionally picking at this particular review, but why cant they be shorter like two or three paragraphs?

I just lose interest when I'm in a sea of blinding white text.


TL DR at the top of post now, not at bottom. The other stuff was kinda, background so you could see my point of view. But meh.
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Joanne
 
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Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:23 am

I absolutely agree on a lot of the points, and concur that I'm saddened to lose so many things.

It makes me slightly uneasy thou that people think their statistics make their character. Its part of it, but really, your character is defined by the setting, dialogue choice (failed by Skyrim on this part) and what YOU put into the character.

A roleplaying game is as much about the freedom to approach the world from a invented personality, as it is from the ability to approach the world from a set of numbers. Morrowinds great success was in combining the two, not just the numbers. To deride Skyrim because it dropped the numbers, unfairly dismisses the well constructed setting and freedoms.

I hope people remember this a little more clearly which is why I ended up leaving it as my sig, since its central to a lot of discussions.
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Penny Wills
 
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Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:21 am

Skyrim is like an enhanced Oblivion.
You said you don't like Oblivion but love Skyrim...
It's just contradictive.
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neil slattery
 
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Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:55 pm

Great summary. Agree with pretty much everything you wrote. Forgot to emphasize this line



This alone has basically ruined the entire game for me.


Me too.
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Lauren Denman
 
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Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:53 am

People complain because that's what people do. People can more easily recall negative memories about something than positive ones. Everyone is essentially self-centered as all "truth" is ultimately self-defined based on what sources you most trust.

Of course having a forum full of complaints is just as ridiculous as having a forum full of "Everything A-OK". There needs to be balance.
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Jessica Phoenix
 
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Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:50 am

I have to agree with this, my first experience with TES was Morrowind and it's still my favorite which I play at least once a week at this age. People like to scream "Nostalgia!" but that falls into a pit when you are actively playing the game.

One thing I have to point out though is that I think it's not possible to create this sense of dread at the start when it comes to fighting just about anything anymore because the feeling of dread was born from this thought "as I am spamming with my weapon will I hit often enough to kill this creature before it kills me ?" the random hit and miss feature of Morrowind really made you fear to fight even something as simple as a mudcrab, these days however if Morrowind was released all over again but with the same "polish" when it comes to physics and the physical interactions between characters where if you hit you just hit, then mudcrabs and rats would be marginally better, and getting stunned by a Scrib ? Not a chance, even in Morrowind you oneshotted those from the start once you got a hit in, granted as long as you didn't get a hit in they could kill you after you initiated combat (granted who would do that to such peaceful creatures... :whistling: ) as you stood there stunned unable to fight back.

Basically what I'm getting at is that the modern polish of games these days also contributes to killing a lot of the atmosphere so I wonder if it would ever be truly possible to release something that would svck you in as much as Morrowind.

Bethesda better try though with the next TES game, this one didn't do it (heck Skyrim has 23 times less spells than even Oblivion...) so if the last stand for the old type of RPG fan didn't die with this game then I hope the next one will be what Skyrim (and Oblivion kinda) were not.

TL DR



Not intentionally picking at this particular review, but why cant they be shorter like two or three paragraphs?

I just lose interest when I'm in a sea of blinding white text.


This is also why we won't have anything like Morrowind again, the average TES player these days can't even read text equivalent to half a page from a real book before giving up. Morrowind had many pages worth of text and we can't have that in spoken dialogue since the sound files would be huge.
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Jah Allen
 
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Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:52 am

I have to agree with you on many points. Let's hope the creation engine gives us the tools to fix it for us "PC elitist".

(Dons flame proof armour) :flamethrower:

Skyrim is a great game, but it needs fixing. If we get Spell making as a DLC I'll be happy and sad all at the same time! (Happy they did it. Sad that they would be charging for something that should have shipped with vanilla).
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RUby DIaz
 
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Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:48 am

I absolutely agree on a lot of the points, and concur that I'm saddened to lose so many things.

It makes me slightly uneasy thou that people think their statistics make their character. Its part of it, but really, your character is defined by the setting, dialogue choice (failed by Skyrim on this part) and what YOU put into the character.

A roleplaying game is as much about the freedom to approach the world from a invented personality, as it is from the ability to approach the world from a set of numbers. Morrowinds great success was in combining the two, not just the numbers. To deride Skyrim because it dropped the numbers, unfairly dismisses the well constructed setting and freedoms.

I hope people remember this a little more clearly which is why I ended up leaving it as my sig, since its central to a lot of discussions.


You're right, I have a backstory etc for my characters and make a personality, but at the same time.. In skyrim theres so many characters that would be exactly alike (from what I can figure) anyway. But meh. I'm going to go to blow off some of my frustration out doors. I hope people read this thread, because I believe that I explained pretty accurately as to why, at least I, complain about the new stuff.
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Bryanna Vacchiano
 
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Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:30 pm

i see your point iit turning into action/ rpg now i played mw then skipped nxt 1( like all games i play ) its still enjoyable but it doesnt feel like it should im on console i was pc but got tired of buying new part 4 evey aaa game
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James Potter
 
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Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:14 am

we all ( most of us ) paid hard earned money for a product that was hyped to high hell

we all got a product that was about 89% complete when it was released ( imo )
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Silvia Gil
 
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Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:32 pm

This is also why we won't have anything like Morrowind again, the average TES player these days can't even read text equivalent to half a page from a real book before giving up. Morrowind had many pages worth of text and we can't have that in spoken dialogue since the sound files would be huge.


Had to quote for truth. =(!
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Avril Louise
 
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Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:02 pm

The grammar in the first post is making my eyes bleed. Other than that... :celebration:

If we get Spell making as a DLC


If it's possible to do via the CK, it will be finished and more polished long before Bethesda gets around to it.

I have to agree with this, my first experience with TES was Morrowind and it's still my favorite which I play at least once a week at this age. People like to scream "Nostalgia!" but that falls into a pit when you are actively playing the game.


I never could really stand to play Oblivion long enough to finish it, yet about two months ago I just finished playing Morrowind and all of the expansions again (with graphical enhancements of course). The worst thing about Morrowind was the combat, but honestly nothing has truly changed since then other than Archery. But anyway, it's not nostalgia at all. It's simply a much better game.
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LADONA
 
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Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:54 am

The grammar in the first post is making my eyes bleed. Other than that... :celebration:


I'm Swedish, sorry!! I will try fix it when I get back.
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Emma Louise Adams
 
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Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:18 am

At least we still have roguelikes, the closest thing that bears some semblance to an RPG.
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Catherine N
 
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Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:25 pm

I can see where people are coming from with regards to the OP. I still enjoy the games, but it would be nice to have more weapons/spells/items and whatnot. The loot though? I don't mind it, I prefer the majority of it being a little more ordinary, as when you find something of more value it feels better. I did a little dance when I found my 50% frost resist ebony boots.
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Joe Alvarado
 
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Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:25 am

tbh i dont think TES will ever be like morrowind as it would take too much development time. with upadated graphics, more detailed world in TES now it takes more time from other aspects of the game, hell, (correct me if i'm wrong, as i never really got in to morrowind, so cannot remember it to well) but morrowind didint even have voice acting, so thats more time just for that. as for it being streamlined, i think to some extent it has, but its still an RPG, its just increased its fanbase, so bethesda earn more money, to keep TES series up and running. the more money they earn the more money they have for future games.

tbh i couldnt really understand why u wanted skyrim to be like morrowind, which seems to be the case quite a bit, someone saying skyrim should be more like morrowind, without any other reason that the fact that it should. just thought i'd give my view on it.
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Honey Suckle
 
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Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:38 am

Go back to Morrowind, you won't be missed. The world moves on and tries new things, you don't - thats fine. Peace kiddo
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Max Van Morrison
 
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Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:53 am

You speak the truth. Of course, those of us form the older generation of TES games are automatically trolls with invalid opinions. Sad but true.

Though it's great that EVERY single problem we brought up, that we were called oblivion bashing trolls for, prior to Skyrim's release, turned out to be 100% accurate. "Optional" fast travel is terrible. Why on earth are these stables so goddam far from the towns? Why do so many towns lack them? Even some holds with jarls? Voiced Dialogue DID severely limit unique quests. The game WAS tailored for use with quest markers. I DID have to travel across the map for various quests. We DID end up with severely limited forms of armour/weaponry.

Next time, don't put your fingers in your ears and yell "LALALALA" next time someone has an opposing opinion, mkay?



Go back to Morrowind, you won't be missed. The world moves on and tries new things, you don't - thats fine. Peace kiddo

I hate this obnoxious opinion. Who told you that new = good? New features aren't neccessarily always good.

Let's say TESVI is released and the game is 100% linear. No side quests, one main quest, can't stray from any path AT ALL. I'd have to still love this game because "everyone has moved on"? Sorry, but no. Morrowind had great features that should have never been taken away. No one ever says Morrowind was perfect. Sure, there are improvements in Skyrim, but that's no reason to automatically assume that everything in the previous games were awful. Not to mention the few Morrowind related features we have in Skyrim are generally well appreciated.

Even Morrowind's feature cutting was too much.
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sarah taylor
 
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