Bizarre problem with horses : IV

» Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:48 am

So I've run into a strange problem with the pending update for Faregyl. Horse riding NPCs who happen to pass through the area are being affected by an odd problem. They don't seem to be capable of making turns. While trying to compensate for this, they're doing a bit of a struggle dance where they walk forward a bit, then backward a bit, then back forward again. It's bizarre. Shooting a passing legion rider, which normally causes them to immediately gallop toward you, triggers the same behavior but only if they're near the village. They cannot make turns and often get stuck trying. It of course makes evading arrest super easy.

NPCs on foot navigating through the area are not having any issues, and none of the creatures living in the village are having trouble walking around either. Shooting a legion officer who is on foot gets the expected run up and arrest action.

It isn't limited to a particular type of horse either, as far as I can tell. 3 NPCs who visit the area from the Verona House mod have trouble, and two of them are using different horses. Although one of them exhibits strange behavior of a different sort - she can only gallop off at top speed until getting far enough away to load the village out of memory.

I've confirmed it stops happening when Faregyl.esp is dropped from the load order with all other things being the same.
It isn't caused by the patch for Faregyl and Anequina either.
I've confirmed it's not some hidden issue with OBSE 0020, as it still happens with 0019b and I can't test an older one since the mod now relies on some commands from 0019b.
I've confirmed that it does not affect horse riding NPCs that exist far enough away from Faregyl to have it loaded out of memory.
I've confirmed it's not an issue with path grids by deleting all of the modifications to the grids that were made.
It's not contamination from dirty data, as the same issue happens with a freshly created character visiting for the first time.
I've confirmed it isn't caused by having the goblin anims from Talkie Toaster's Playable/NPC goblins loaded.
There are no edits to any AI packs or scripts that I could conceive of being able to cause something like this.
It's not something weird caused by OSR, I tried it with that removed. (GACK! Game is so bad without it!)
It isn't an issue with the ini, as the problem still exists with a fresh one. (BTW, never forget about custom UI and/or BSA files when you do this! OUCH!)

I suspect anyone who might be able to help will end up needing a copy of the mod. That can be arranged, with the understanding it's not certified for public use yet.

So... uh... help? Anyone have any ideas as to a possible cause? Obligatory load order.

Spoiler

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» Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:10 pm

I'll take a look for you. Maybe just another pair of eyes will spot something, although off-hand I have no idea what it could be. I have seen some odd behaviour with NPC's on horses, but they usually only get stuck for a moment or two and ultimately get unstuck and continue.

» Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:04 pm

Amazing timing, I posted yesterday a similar sounding bizarre problem with horses, which I attribute to use of the tcl console command. Anyway, problem is gone when reverting to an earlier save game - see http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1160709-why-do-i-see-horses-hopping-then-sinking-into-the-ground-at-weye/page__view__findpost__p__17032322

» Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:14 am

PM sent for andalaybay.

Dwip also commented that in his game, horse riders everywhere are being affected by it.

@Mahjers: Interesting. Being a test char, yes, he's used tcl regularly. My other guys that I've come to check it with though haven't, and the fresh character I went and observed things with hadn't either.

It seems to be very clearly animation related at this point.

» Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:04 am

It seems to be very clearly animation related at this point.

totally crack pot theory that has no reason to be in my head.. what about other mounts? What happens if you sneak in something else that replaces the horse files, like one of the many mount mods...

I can't see why it matters atm, but I have a theory, probably wrong, but it's the first thing I thought of when I read Mahjers topic earlier..

» Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:59 pm

In my instance, all horses I saw were affected, NPC's weren't. It looks like the ground elevation perceived by the horses is very uneven, like they are walking through invisible potholes or on ball bearings. They shuffle around, turning this way and that looking for a way to walk around, will start hopping around, and if the ground is sloped like on the bridge approach in weye, sink and fall through.

In case it helps, I went through a series of steps before getting rid of the problem, only the last of which I mentioned above. But maybe a combination of steps is needed to solve the issue:
1. When I first saw it, I had been testing OSR performance, so thought it might be that. I completely removed OSR from my game, but problem still happened.
2. The night before I had added a bunch of Pyffied meshes, so I reverted back to unpyffied meshes. Same problem.
3. I use mTES4 manager, so I switched to a clone I had of a vanilla oblvion, and confirmed there was no problem there (though using a different set of save games)
4. Switch back to my clone with the problem, then try Arkngt's suggestion of dropping the oblivion.ini to get a default one. Unlike your experience, for me a fresh character didn't encounter the problem. But after comparing old and new ini's, I only saw differences in settings that didn't sound like they would have any bearing on this particular issue, so I suspected some dud state saved into the save game files.
5. Discovered that my save game after using godmode and tcl commands while in vilverin exhibits the problem, but the save game from before that didn't.

I'm thinking that somehow the tcl command in some way affected ground elevation tables that only horses are sensitive to. But I also might be completely crackpot too. Anyway, hope this helps!

» Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:00 am

@Ghogiel: Tried switching the standard horse.nif for one of the ones from http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=14413 which made no different. The guy mounted the thing as normal and immediately started with the back and forth bit, just like before.

I tried http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16909 as well, and though it was hard trying to see through the mass of graphical glitches that caused, it also did the same. Immediately to the back and forth bit, and Bear Mount replaces the entire animation set for the horses.

» Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:34 am

Arthmoor, I had another thought.

Is it possible there's some kind of invisible collision boxes there? Something buried just underground maybe? Some kind of marker?
I know DarkRider had a similar problem with a horse that liked to spin. Maybe he can shed some light?

» Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:03 am

Ok, I've been having a look but there aren't any mounted NPC's in the area atm. On my ride over, I encountered a legion soldier just standing next to his horse. I spoke to him and after the conversation, he ran after a bear. Once we killed the bear, he just continued to stand and stare at his horse. I waited a bit and he never mounted while I was there. This was nowhere near Faregyl, so I don't know if it's a symptom or not. I continued my ride towards Faregyl and passed two mounted legion soldiers. They had no problems turning their horses.

So now I might have to back out to the road and see if I can get a mounted soldier to chase me because as I said, there's noone mounted in Faregyl right now. I'm having no problems turning my horse, even in Faregyl.

Gaius Baltar? :rofl: I think I just found out what one of your favourite shows is

» Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:30 am

@Hanaisse: In relation to old Faregyl, the only thing close to that would be the large trigger zone boxes that have been placed. Those don't have collision though... but... they do cover the entire physical area of the village. That wouldn't explain the behavior I tracked with the rider halfway to Bravil that was still having issues.

@andalaybay: It's been made easier for me because VHB has one of its people visit the inn on a regular basis. He rides in on a bay horse, followed by two escorts using the lighter brown ones. He's been the most affected by all this, but any rider coming through the area due to road use is having trouble.

Yes, I liked BSG. Maybe too much?

» Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:41 pm

I just saw this happening in my game as well as I was testing a new blackhorse courier I made with a fast horse. Except for the horse being 60 instead of 33 speed and the NPC turned into a khajiitit it is all vanilla settings for the rider and horse (I only copied existing one and changed the name and form id. and race and removed AI packages replaced with one to go to an X marking as soon as they are enabled.).

I thought is was the speed so I lowered it back to 33, that help a little but did not make the issue go away!

I also saw the tail of a khajiit streching all the way to the center of the cell. This is a graphic issue I have seen in my personal game before and fixed by removing the NPC's (that was effected mod) this is the first time it has happen in MY mod (that I am making).

I saw this strech issue in the CS render window as well, so I may be forced to change the NPC to a non khajiit I am not sure if this has any connection to the horse issue we are having but thought I would mention it as it happen at the same time as the horse issues.

BTW I have only my own mods loaded, the only thing that is not mine is OBSE, REFStuff, fastexit, Elys_USVand my new meshes for unrelated items such as a flute, wood boards a new fish creature, stuff like that.

@Hanaisse: In relation to old Faregyl, the only thing close to that would be the large trigger zone boxes that have been placed. Those don't have collision though... but... they do cover the entire physical area of the village. That wouldn't explain the behavior I tracked with the rider halfway to Bravil that was still having issues.

@andalaybay: It's been made easier for me because VHB has one of its people visit the inn on a regular basis. He rides in on a bay horse, followed by two escorts using the lighter brown ones. He's been the most affected by all this, but any rider coming through the area due to road use is having trouble.

Yes, I liked BSG. Maybe too much?

» Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:18 am

Isn't the stretched tail thing caused by setting the wrong skeleton type on the NPC? I've made that mistake before too. Of course I also can't recall having seen a Khajiit riding a horse before so that could be something else.

I haven't edited any horses in this though, so whatever is causing it is coming from somewhere obscure within the mod.

» Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:05 am

Yes, I liked BSG. Maybe too much?

Well, at least his name doesn't stand out too badly from TES names :lol:

'fraid I preferred the original series. The new one was good, but I just couldn't get into it as much. I think I preferred the optimistic escapism of the original :lol:

Alright, back to testing...

» Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:46 pm

I also think it could still maybe be a collision issue, that you can't see.

It might be that in the collision data, that you didn't use a "bhkSPCollisionObject" (think of this as a bhkCollisionObject alternative), & under that, a "bhksimpleshapephantom" (alternative to the bhkrigidbody) , with the collision mesh shape (bhkboxshape, etc) under the bhksimpleshapephantom.

I think the bhksimpleshapephantom makes it so that collision acts like a non-tangible "ghost" or "phantom", hence the name. I know some collision can be like a "ghost" with regular collision parts (bhkcollisionobject and bhkrigidbody), like with the OL_NonCollidable collision layer, but some others can't (which might include OL_Trigger layer??). I'm not entirely sure whether the bhksimpleshapephantom just makes the collision unactivateable, or whether it means it actually makes it so that the actors can go through it, regardless of the collision type it is, or if it's both. It's been a while since I've played with it, tbh, so I can't recall what all I ran in to, in the few times I've used it.

If you go ingame, bring up the console, and type "tcg" (toggle collision global), then exit the console, you'll see all the collision of all the objects around you. So that can help you see if collision is blocking the horses, in that area.

Koniption

» Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:24 am

Well I took a http://i855.photobucket.com/albums/ab118/AndalayBay/Oblivion/Oblivion2011-01-2123-46-26-73.jpg with tcg and don't see anything other than the trigger zones Arthmoor mentioned. I'll see if I can get a rider to follow me into Faregyl and see what happens.

» Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:06 pm

Drat I've found that the horse stutter problem has come back for me, and the steps I used last time has not solved the issue this time.
The problem reoccured without me having used the tcl console command, so I think that was a red herring.

» Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:51 am

I tried a test with tcg too (that was trippy). Followed the 2 NRB guards along their route from Faregyl all the way out to The Gold Road, and wouldn't you know everything was fine. We even killed a bear and 2 trolls along the way, they got back on their horses fine. There was no unusual looking collision stopping them at all.

I have seen some very odd behaviour from these same guards before though, as Arthmoor knows, so I know it happens, it just seems.....random. I love when they walk backwards.

» Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:46 pm

If you go ingame, bring up the console, and type "tcg" (toggle collision global), then exit the console, you'll see all the collision of all the objects around you. So that can help you see if collision is blocking the horses, in that area.

Koniption

tcg isn't showing me much, other than simple lines on the screen have the ability to cripple frame rates. There's nothing blocking the horse path though. I even moved the trigger boxes up high in the sky to see if they were a problem, and the horses are still doing the backward dance.

I've also checked backup copies of the mod going as far back as 6 months ago (none older) and they're showing the same issue. So whatever happened happened a long time ago.

The original, which is the current public release, doesn't have this issue. So it's definitely got to be something I did, but I can't find it.

The collision zones I used are just copies of vanilla ones. I didn't make a new collision zone mesh for this so they have whatever Bethesda used on them.

» Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:53 am

Ummm, I'm not sure I was able to reproduce this... I finally found a mounted legion soldier on the road heading to Skingrad. I hit him with a spell and then started running. I had to hit him again to keep him chasing me (almost killed his horse)! Anyway it was a lovely chase ALL the way back to Faregyl. I then proceeded to run around the paved roads in Faregyl for about five loops - he was following me on horseback just fine. I even took shortcuts through the fields a couple of times and he turned and followed me. I reversed direction, did a bunch more loops - same story. I finally hopped the fence into the pig sty. He wasn't behind me, but when I walked over to the gate, he was there. Now his horse did back up a bit, but he did the turn and walked up to me in the pig sty. He said "How are you champion". I initiated conversation and of course now he wanted to arrest me. I resisted arrest. At first he didn't get off his horse, but I had to run because now the guards in Faregyl came running (on foot). I ran way from them and when I turned back, the legion soldier had now dismounted and was chasing me too. After some bloodshed I was finally left with only the horse chasing me. I noticed that he couldn't turn on the pathways, he would walk backwards, but once there was enough room, he would turn and chase me. I wouldn't call it a dance and he was able to turn once there was a bit more room. I don't think I saw him turn without walking a couple of steps backwards first though, so maybe this is what you're referring to. I'm pretty sure when I was running from the mounted soldier he just turned, but I can't say for sure - I wasn't running backwards, I had to turn to look and by the time I did that, he was definitely turning to follow me.

They definitely didn't get stuck though. Am I seeing the problem or not? I can see if I can a fraps video I guess. I don't own fraps but I believe you can still get a short video...

» Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:37 am

Well that's close, but not quite the same. What I'm getting at is definitely much more pronounced, and if I was up to the hassle of dealing with fraps I guess I could video the issue to make it more clear. The two guards that belong to NRB4 that patrol the road make easy targets. You can shoot them, especially when they're walking away from you, and they just can't get the horse to turn around, so their AI is obviously trying to find another way to you, and walking backward ends up being it. It's even more pronounced with the guy from VHB who can't even get turned once he's on the road so he can leave the area. Just back and forth, I could just stand there and watch for ages.

» Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:29 am

Well that's close, but not quite the same. What I'm getting at is definitely much more pronounced, and if I was up to the hassle of dealing with fraps I guess I could video the issue to make it more clear. The two guards that belong to NRB4 that patrol the road make easy targets. You can shoot them, especially when they're walking away from you, and they just can't get the horse to turn around, so their AI is obviously trying to find another way to you, and walking backward ends up being it. It's even more pronounced with the guy from VHB who can't even get turned once he's on the road so he can leave the area. Just back and forth, I could just stand there and watch for ages.

Yeah, I just repeated my little test and the mounted soldier who's chasing me turns just fine! He almost caught me this time. He actually took the shortcut across the little field just below the mine. My character's speed is almost 100, if not 100 already, so he's pretty fast. I wonder if the problem manifests itself only when the horse is walking. I've got VOILA loaded and that has an add-on that adds a lot more mounted soldiers. Let me enable the add-on and see if I can get one of them walking through the area. Is there a way to spawn one of these guys in the area?

Edit: actually I might be able to get the soldier chasing me to walk by letting him catch me... I'll try that.

» Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:24 am

Ok, while I'm not getting the exact same behaviour you describe, things aren't quite working right. I verified that even at walking speed, then can turn ok. Sometimes they do back up a bit, but they do get the horse turned. I actually had three of them chase me into Faregyl. Two of them were able to get turned around ok, but the third had to back his horse all the way down the path. He didn't get stuck though, just backed out. The other two were right next to him, so it's entirely possible that the AI felt that there wasn't enough room to turn.

The part that isn't working is that the legion soldier doesn't give the "your crime spree is at an end" speech when he catches you. He just walks his horse into you then turns away. With Faregyl loaded, I get the same behaviour outside of Faregyl. When I removed Faregyl, I got the speech from horseback once the soldier caught me. Since the soldier can give the speech from horseback, I'm not sure it's an animation issue. Now if I initiate conversation with the soldier, then I get the speech, but I have to initiate it with Faregyl loaded.

So I think you're such a fan of the DB that you coded something in there that makes it easy to avoid arrest subconsciously

I'll poke about in the plugin now and see if I can find anything.

» Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:26 am

You're running into something else that hasn't show up before. When they're having their fits, I can casually walk away and watch them struggle trying to turn to come get me - even if they're the only one on the road. If I walk up to them they arrest me just fine.

Hanaisse had one of the guards dismount and walk over to a house and he seriously looked like he was stopping to pee on the guy's wall. Hilarious, but obviously not right.

» Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:34 am

You're running into something else that hasn't show up before. When they're having their fits, I can casually walk away and watch them struggle trying to turn to come get me - even if they're the only one on the road. If I walk up to them they arrest me just fine.

Hanaisse had one of the guards dismount and walk over to a house and he seriously looked like he was stopping to pee on the guy's wall. Hilarious, but obviously not right.

:rofl: When I zapped a guard with a spell on one occasion he said something like "Hey come on now! There's no need to get violent!". I laughed at that one.

Have you tried your compile all trick? Worked wonders for me :lol:

This is weird...

» Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:56 pm

Yep, did a compile all under OBSE 0019b. More out of desperation than anything else. Yes, they tend to yell stuff like "Help! HELP! I'm being attacked!" and then because they can't turn the damn horse they can't arrest me for it