Isn't this what happens when a publisher tells you your game can't have a protagonist of color, female etc. because it won't sell?

I want a game that represents cat owners who doesn′t like Russian caviar

There is no quick or easy solution, and there is no true benefit in a sudden revolt (especially an affected one).

If you want to shift attitudes, mollify prejudice and ultimately promote an egalitarian view of humanity, you have to teach children the wonders of the world and of human achievement.Representation of minorities in society or the media starts with representation in education (in the short term).

Personally if I had political power, I would campaign to remove 'race' as a form of identity; whether it be on passports or any form of documentation.Race is a surface detail, not a defining one; it's elevated importance must be struck down and not competed for by different races, including this artificial attempt to promulgate the unfavorable representation of black Women in games.Races should not be represented, cultures should be.Race has as much value in defining the personality of someone as the shape of their ear lobes.

If I had political power I′d remove political correctness

And no, race is not just a surface detail. There′s differences deeper down too. Nothing that′s bad for any race though, just different

That's true, but in the same way if a child is drawing mass graves and the suicide of his family members we can't be numb to it, even if there is artistic merit in the depraved.If we see oppression, discrimination and the objectification of people in games we equally can not be numb to the fact, as it might be an indictment of a larger and darker problem.

Unless we're defined by pigment, or the duration of blood cell life cycles I'd consider the subtle nuances in biology at most a surface detail.

I have a simple question: How do we define being black?

Is it....through some form of Ghetto living hardship? Or perhaps through moments of discrimination? Cause one doesn't have to just be black to experience that. No, I'm not black and I live through that [censored] everyday.

Or is it a skin color = I can relate? Because if so, that is shallow.

Now I have the same question as to women: How do we define a woman?

Is it by being an overly emotional, clingy, weak princess? Or the strong lisbian queen of the north? Both of those are silly and I would think very unrelatable. Or perhaps it is through discrimination, hardships, single parent lifestyle, etc? Cause, again, that's not just something women go through. Plenty of single dads out there.

Or does the simple fact that a character has a pair of briast enough for people to relate? Again, that's shallow.

One more question: How would any of you find a way to use your definition of what makes any of those two questions fit within a story? And how would just playing as a Black, gay, straight, furry, Vegan(I'm a Vegan, where is my character at?), lisbian, women, transgender, otherkin or w/e else I'm missing effect the game and story?

(I'm seriously asking, no sarcasm here)

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/d0/28/eb/d028ebeabdc812ab10ace340223c4553.jpg.

If we want everybody treated the same, why do we single a group out for discussion?

This is my issue with ERA and affirmative action and other misguided policies in the US. We want women, minorities, gays etc treated just like everybody else so we are going to make a special law, that singles them out, to treat them the same. The guiding law of the land is that "All men are created equal." I'm going to assume the founding fathers did not mean all straight, Christian, white man are created equal. Nor that they meant to exclude women.

Seems simple, keep it that way.

My apologies to the mods if this strayed too far from the OP's point and into dangerous waters, delete if needed.

The hilarious irony of identity politics summed up in one sentence. "Don't paint us with a broad brush!", then proceeds to use the pronoun 'we'. I suspect the less whining from individual groups, the greater the chance devs will branch out as they aren't trying to play the balancing act progressives demand they do.

No one here is trying to define what defines a race or gender, especially if we don't share those genders or race. Those outside the group shouldn't define what that group is or is not, and your questions are incredibly leading. Yes, some people do relate to others based on skin color. Some relate to others based on other things, like where they were born or socioeonomic status. The point being that people relate to one another - and to characters in media - through a variety of methods. I can't relate, for example, to Arya from Game of Thrones, but I can definitely relate to Lord Varys, because of my own upbringing and who I am.


What "makes up" a race or a gender isn't really the point here, but instead whether people get to see parts of themselves within media. And that means representing as much of humanity as possible, not just the white and heteronormative.


As far as "fitting within a story" - you have that backwards, I think. You can write a story outline, say, Game of Thrones, as basically noble houses fighting for control over an empire. But that says nothing about how the characters react to what is going on around them, because each character has a different life and a different way of looking at the world around them. There is no "fit" between the story and the characters in that a part of a story has a "insert LGBT character here" marker. People - and characters - bring who they are to how they live and what they do. We, each one of us, is made up of different identities and self-representations, and a great deal of media - especially videogames - stick very close to the stereotypes and the biggest majority to propel sales.


To further illustrate my point, I'll provide a personal example. I'm bisixual and for many years during high school I struggled with my sixual identity, trying to figure myself out. A lot of that struggle - of questioning who you are and who you love - is something that a lot of people don't have to deal with because they are in the majority and everything just fits together for them. There is little disconnect between their sense of self and what they see around them every day. But I was practically alone - I went to a small private school and I was pretty much the only LGBT person there that I was aware of. That sort of isolation can be horrible and I honestly wouldn't wish it on anyone.


A life-long friend of mine, at high school graduation, gave me a book as a present. A comic book, illustrating the life of a gay college student coming to terms with his own sixuality and his place in the world. Throughout the story this college student learns how to make friends at college and becomes more comfortable in his own skin, the story finally culminating in his coming out to his mother and father. I remember starting to cry.


I hadn't yet come out to my parents at that point in my life, and the sheer dread I felt, that they could potentially reject who I was, filled me with utter fear and despair. Even now, a full decade after I came out to them, I still have tears in my eyes thinking about that moment.


So when you ask how having a minority character in media or playing as an LGBT character affects the story I can only say to you that it feels absolutely wonderful to be able to, at least for a moment, see in a character my own struggles, to see how that character has gone through the same things I did and has come out whole. And that's not even going into how it feels to play myself in a character, especially in a game like Mass Effect, Skyrim, or Fallout.

Actually, the founding fathers DID mean all straight, Christian, and white men*. Women didn't have the vote. Free black men didn't have the vote in most cases (and slaves certainly did not). Only white landowners had the vote. The founding fathers were well aware of the irony and inequality when they wrote "all men are created equal".


* More or less.

Wait, how do you know if we're outside the group until we define it?

Very true, everyone in politics wants to tar with the broad brush but not to be tarred themselves.

Eh, it wasn't the best phrase I've ever written.

My point was that those outside group X don't often have as strong of an understanding of what defines group X as members of group X do. Of course it's a (much) bigger and more complicated issue than that, but I don't feel like writing another small essay right now.

I get everything you said here, and I agree with it, but that was kind of my point-ish.

If a character is black, say the main character of a story, I don't understand how or why that should matter as just having black characters doesn't mean anything. People are so much more than just their skin color and my questions were mostly geared toward those who can't look beyond the surface details. Being apart of the LGBT and facing that kind of discrimination would alter one's character(Due to social manipulation) thus making them have character, but that isn't all one is defined by now, is it? To that I say no, people are more than just one label and characters should reflect that.

I think I'm going off topic with this though. We're talking about Black women in video games here so.....yup...off topic.

Let me get a little further off topic and say that your personal story hits home in more ways then I'll type. But I see how having someone to relate with helps ease some of those heavy burdens, even if they aren't "real" per-se.

Edit- I meant the character not being "real", not the burdens.

This goes to Equal outcome vs Equal opportunity. Everyone has an equal opportunity to become game programmers, i dont think there is any racist biases for hiring game programmers, developers will hire any game programmer that can do it.

Now this chick wants Equal outcome. Where black women have to be equally represented in video games, which is just stupid. It is what it is, it's not some big conspiracy to undermine black women, but pretty much that there is very little black women in game programming. There's nothing stopping black women from becoming game programmers and making games with black women heroes, they have just as equal as an opportunity than anyone else. It just so happens that most high end programmers are either asian or white. Nothing racist there, that's just the way it happens to be.

Universities in the states try to change this demographic by making white and asian people have to have way higher marks than black people to be accepted into their university because they feel there isnt enough black people, and they do it as incentive to try and get more black people in universities. That model has shown that it doesnt work, we arent magically getting more black programmers. I dont know what the exact cause, but i'd guess that in general black culture doesnt hold programming and technological fields in as high regards as asian culture as a whole (there's obviously exceptions to everything).

Anyway, all im saying is i think that everyone should have an opportunity to do anything, as equal as anyone else. But the outcome isnt always equal. For example, in general most women dont like getting into mechanic jobs, for whatever reasons. Doesnt mean that mechanics everywhere are discriminating against women, just so happens that lots of women dont like doing those jobs. Or likewise, men arent just magically dominating the beauty salon industry, because in general lots of men dont want to work at beauty salons. Everyone has the opportunity to do that, just some people dont want to, and they happen to fall into a different demographic.

These activists claim to want to end racism, but really in the end they are just perpetuating racism and racism will NEVER die when people always have to segregate people based on colour, or six or whatever demographic. When a black person goes "hey, how come there's not enough black people working at this place?!", that to me keeps racism alive. Why dont you look as everyone as PEOPLE? who cares about what race everyone is. If it just so happens all the qualified people to work at a job happen to be black, or women, or men, or asian, then that's just the way it is. This whole culture of microaggression and pussifing of people is just getting too much.

Having an equal amount of every race and demographic in every medium, is unfair in my opinion. The reason there are a lot of white people in media in north america, is because north america was settled by white people, and has primarily white people. Just like if i went to china, most local tv stations, and media will have lots of chinese people, because there is 2 billion of them there. Basic math is gonna tell us that there is way more qualified Chinese people than there are White people in China, because there just arent as many white people as asians in china.

Remember Resident Evil 5? It's a game set in Africa, in the previews the main character was killing a bunch of black people (because that's the main demographic that happens to live in africa), and black people complained that it was a game about killing black people and was racist, when in reality, it was a game that was set in a country that is settled of majorly black people, so it happens thatmost people turned into zombies are black people. It's not racist, that's the way it is. But of course, Capcom changed the game, and put in a bunch of random out of place white people in the middle of the african slums for some reason. That cheapened the authenticness of the game for a blatant cop out to appease a vocal minority of complainers.

Equal opportunity does NOT mean equal outcome.

I totally agree that people are more than their skin color or their sixual orientation - but that can still have a great deal of meaning to someone. I'm a white male. I see white males in movies, TV, and videogames all the time. Since I see it so often, it doesn't have that great of an impact on me because it is still pretty much the default for Hollywood and for the gaming industry. But when I see a character who is LGBT or disabled in some way, that gives me more insight into their motivations and, well, character. Plus I sometimes see a bit of myself there.


And the article may have been about black women in videogames / videogame development culture, but I think the topic has grown to be larger than that and is now a discussion of minorities in media (and especially videogames, given the nature of this forum).

Your premise is flat out wrong. People do not have equal opportunity in life, because life is not equal, especially in regards to socioeconomics. If you don't have money, you can't afford to live in a place with good educational resources. If you don't have good educational resources available, you don't perform as well as those who have more educational resources available. Can't get into a strong college / university, and on and on.

You bring up a very good point. An example we can use is, hell, Fallout 4. The release trailer has a white straight male who's happily married to his white straight female. Bethesda played into the safe stereotype and not many complained, though I wonder how different people's reactions would have been if the MC was, say, in a polygamist Bisixual relationship. I'm guessing the masses would be in an uproar over the [Insert derogatory name] protagonist and the games sales wouldn't have been to well.

What that says about the current mindset of gamer's (Or perhaps society in general) is quite sad.

Something that stumps me though is to how we (Gamer guys/gals) can change this? Is it by demanding more diversity within the games?

Catering to every single race/orientation/preference is just ridiculous. Every side variety of what is normal by nature simply cannot be covered and no one can demand that. It′s impossible.

Bethesda spent roughly $90 million dollars on Skyrim. Assuming they spent that much on FO4, if not more, the least they could have done was include lisbian / gay relationship choices for the intro. Just a few changed lines of voice dialog and hell, they could have used the same voice actors if they really wanted to keep costs down. And it's not as if your

Which also nicely explains the paucity of black people in programming, considering the relatively low standard of education in many predominantly black countries.

Meritocracy is a lie, we live in a society that frowns upon young or teenage boys playing with make up; nevermind aspiring to own their own beauty parlor or salon, at best they'll be considered 'weird', at worst they could be physically and psychologically abused for it.The same premise largely holds firm for Women aspiring to be mechanics, you're put in a box because of it and usually an unfavorable one by society.

I agree. To be honest I was disgusted at myself for the longest time due to my orientation(where I'm from did not help), I felt wrong, everything around me kept telling me that I should not be, that I was wrong and not normal just for being. Heck any portrayal of a gay man in the media back then was the most negative stereotype that you could get.

Growing up constantly seeing that did not help.

That's why I fell in love with the TES games, and a good chunk of old CRPGs. A strong heroic warrior who just happens to be gay? It might sound like a little or insignificant thing, but for me? I love it.

people that claim they don't see color is only ignoring racism, no helping to solve it. that's like basic PC there to check.

I think they probably thought it would affect the immersive nature of the intro if they popped up with a menu to choose before going to the mirror. That and the child being kind of important to the story, I guess they might have felt that gay parents would have muddied the simplicity of it.

I just thought of something. http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Arcade_Gannon is a character that is gay but his entire character is not a cesspool of gay-men cliche's.

Perhaps this is a way to include different minorities, to make the actual character's character standout before their sixual orientation.

That's another good example, Berret.

TES is a game series where I think my point stands out the most. The PC can be anyone they want to be and, in a way, it's "all inclusive". (I don't like saying all inclusive btw )

To clear the air here, I don't think every game needs to include every race/sixual orientation/religion or w/e, but it should start to become "Normal by nature" to see in all forms of media.

We're talking about the same Bethesda Game Studios right?

Though to be fair I do give them props for the intro. Though a little reworking could have easily added in a sixual orientation option (maybe have the spouse come in to view after selection?).

I loved Arcade Gannon. Too bad he wasn't a character written by Bethesda.