One of the books I linked is basically a dragon hitlist. Odahviing's on it (and listed as killed).

Paarth is on it. Paarth is on it and listed as 'we can't kill this guy yet, but we'll continue to wait for a good opportunity, because he really really deserves it'. This is the book Esbern appears to get Paarth's name out of, especially since he also comes up with Odahviing's name. Esbern did NOT know that Paarth was still alive until he found this book (though he seems to be familiar with Paarthurnax's history), so at some point, the fact that Paarthurnax was sitting up on the Throat of the World ceased to be common knowledge among the Blades.

Why didn't Tiber Septim kill him/get told to kill him? Maybe the Blades didn't know. Maybe they did know, but being as Tiber Septim was trying to fortify his Empire, it mightn't have been the greatest of ideas to royally piss off the holy men of the Nords that just swore allegiance to you.

You aren't founding an Empire though. There isn't much political fallout left to come from pissing off the Greybeards. And the Blades know that 1) Paarthurnax is alive, and 2) you have access to him, which, again, may very well be the first time in thousands of years that they've had an opportunity to kill the dude. The only reason Paarth survives the events of the game is if the player decides not to kill him. So, you know, they're a might bit cranky about you blowing that chance.

And that's why I say there is a disconnect in their priorities. If the Blades were dragon-killers first, and you decided not to kill Paarth, then yea I'd say the Blades have a case; you are clearly acting against their interests. But that's not the case. They're not dragon-killers first, that's just something that happens to be affiliated with their order - they exist to serve the dragonborn first. Thus it's absurd when they flip these two priorities, especially just to fill some thousand year old vendetta that they only know about through a few books (or to fill some sense of justice without caring about your views on the matter).

"Akaviri dragon-motifs are found in all quarters, from the high minaret bridges of the Imperial City to the paper hako skiffs that villagers use to wing their dead down the rivers. Thousands of workers ply the rice fields after the floodings, or clear the foliage of the surrounding jungle in the alternate seasons. Above them are the merchant-nobility, the temple priests and cult leaders, and the age-old aristocracy of the battlemages. The Emperor watches over them all from the towers of the Imperial City, as dragons circle overhead."
- http://imperial-library.info/content/pocket-guide-empire-first-edition-cyrodiil

It was after Tiber got control of the Empire, but before conquering the remaining provinces. Nafaalilargus is simply one that we can name, and was well known to be part of his army during the conquest of Hammerfell.

Please refer to the ginormous post I made above, in which dragonkilling pervades their entire history (up until the point there just weren't any more dragons they COULD kill, or at least that they felt deserved killing), in which they were dragonkillers in Akavir, after leaving Akavir, and after finding Reman Cyrodiil, and in which dragonkilling features pretty prominently in the legends of the Dragonborn prior to the rise of the Empire, and in some cases, after. I really don't want to type it out again.

You're a Dragonborn refusing to kill the dragon at the top of their thousand years old 'needs to die' list. You get your power from absorbing the souls of dead dragons, for crying out loud. The argument that dragonkilling and the Dragonborn is somehow not related, and couldn't possibly be intrinsically tied together in the history of the Blades, is silly. It's not just 'something that happens to be affiliated with their order'. It's what their order has done since before their discovery of the Dragonborn, and is very likely the entire reason they sought out the Dragonborn in the first place, as the Dragonborn is the only one capable of killing a dragon for good.

The only reason the Blades stopped killing dragons is that there weren't any dragons left that needed killing.

They listed all known dragons, and every dragon that wasn't listed as dead was one they wanted to find and kill.


We don't know the extent and purpose of the dragonborn's power. Just because he can absorb their souls to power his shouts doesn't mean his purpose if to kill dragons. It could just as easily be his purpose is to kill only as many dragons as needed to knock the rest of them into submission with his Thu'um. We also don't know what he's capable of doing with those souls.


And yet they won't listen to the Dragonborn himself saying that Paarth doesn't need to be killed, as he's no longer a threat, has been pivotal in helping mankind against Alduin both in previous eras and now, and will actively work to make the remaining dragons stand down. But I suppose vengeance is more important than gratitude. "Gee Parthy, you really helped save our bacon against Alduin two times in a row, now. But we need to kill you because of what you were like thousands of years ago before helping us, kthx."

Yet, when calling forth a dragon they don't seem to care. It's only Paarth that they are anxious about.



No and neither do the blades. The easiest answer here is that the Dragonborns are capable of permantly killing dragons, ergo their job is to permantly kill dragons.



That isn't vengeance it's justice... at least in their mind.



Interesting... In the begining of Skyrim after killing your first dragon some of the guards have a discussion that goes something like this
Random guard 1:"I've never heard about Tiber Septim killing any Dragons"
Random guard 2: "That's because there weren't any dragons around back then"

So, I assumed there were no dragons back then...

Also it's somewhat strange, at least to me, how the dissapearance of so many creatures caused no scientific study of any kind...

Except nothing that you quote points out it as pervading their entire history, only as happening up until the early Second Era, over a thousand years ago and even though there were still more dragons around. Not only that, but 'pervading' is a vast overstatement. Exactly how many dragons does the Altas of Dragons note the Blades killing after their inception? Two. That's right, two.* Killing one dragon during a thousand year stint in the First Era, and then one more two hundred years later in the Second Era is not 'pervading' - it's just something they did a couple times (and they only killed the one after it slaughtered a bunch of people)

Not only that, but the whole dragon-hunting thing is an original misconception on the part of humans, a misconception that the Akaviri themselves correct. Hunting dragons was a means for finding the Dragonborn, how exactly we cannot say, but after they found the Dragonborn it was not a priority for them regardless of you saying that it is. Killing two dragons with the hope to maybe kill a few more is not a priority, it's not being steeped in dragonkilling. The only time they killed lots of dragons was during the time of the Dragon War, and for that period it's understandable - they weren't killing because they hated dragons, they were killing because it was necessary.

*The Atlas does say that there were 12 dragons killed around the time that Sky Haven was established, but we don't know when that is. We can say for sure that it's before the Blades were a faction as such but it probably dates to around the time the original Akaviri were coming over. This bumps up the Dragonguard's killcount right during it's inception, but still leaves over a thousand year gap in which they hardly killed any, and another thousand years after that were they actively served Dragonborn who protected dragons.

Again, killing all of two dragons in the thousand year period following their inception is not "intrinsically tied." Not only that, but The Rise and Fall of the Blades points out that they seek a Dragonborn, not so he can kill dragons, but because they serve the Dragonborn (so they can protect him, and so he can guide them). How does seeking somebody to protect translate into sending that guy to go kill dragons?

They killed dragons as Akaviri in order to find a Dragonborn, they killed dragons during the Dragon War because they had to, they killed only a handful of dragons after that time and we know for a fact that all through the Second and Third Eras they allowed dragons to live (likely because the Dragonborn told them to, given that the dragons worked for the Empire). Not to mention it's the Blade's predecessors that are the ones killing those dragons, not the Blades themselves. Killing dragons is not what they do, it's just something they've happen to have been caught up in in the past. And now they won't even accept the Dragonborn's - their sworn leader's - guidance on whether or not to kill this one.

Again, your facts are mistaken. They are not dragon-killers, they exist to serve the Dragonborn, and Delphine and Esbern turn their back on that vow. The best case that could be made for them is that the true purpose of the Blades has been lost and they've been deluded into thinking that their real goal is supposed to be killing dragons - this is more understandable but it still puts them in the wrong.

But lets go further. Lets say I'll cede that the Blades are first and foremost dragonkillers and that Esbern is upset with me for turning my back on this task. I, by myself, have killed more dragons than the Blades have in their entire illustrious two-thousand year history. Not only have I killed more, I've more than doubled their death-count, tripled even. And yet now they're gonna call me out on not being true to the old ways? I'm more true to dragon killing than they could hope to be if they lived for two-thousand years and had an entire army at their disposal!

This is simply a falsity. We know for a fact that they're wrong, absolutely and utterly. Not only did we meet a dragon who worked for the empire during Tiber Septim's reign in the events of Redguard, but we also know for a fact that as late as the reign of Uriel Septim VII there were still dragons working for the empire, as can be seen in Battlespire. The Empire had dragons working for them without a doubt up until near the end of the Third Era.

Now you can't just constantly say that the Blades refused to kill these dragons because of some turmoil or because timing was bad? Or was timing just always bad for the past thousand years that we know dragons were working for the empire. There were more dragons to kill, the Blades just weren't in the dragon-killing business. It didn't matter, because they had a Dragonborn to protect, and the Dragonborn takes priority for orthodox Blades (which clearly Delphine and Esbern are not) - and, as I've argued above, dragon-killing likely wasn't even ever a secondary priority for the Blades.

I think its a sidepodge of changing character design screwed up- logically speaking, the Blades have always been presented as the protectors of the Emperors, who we now learn were all Dragonborn (or became Dragonborn. Or something).

That said, with the Emperors dead, the Blades mostly destroyed, a fear-crazed loremaster and a super-paranoid Acting Grandmaster (who thinks the entire thing of a Dragonborn reappearing is a trap to lure her out, until you prove yourself), they've obviously got some serious issues to work out on whether or not they can actually trust you, and mistrust a bunch of powerful old men who sit on a mountain sworn to a life of peace. Not only that, they CONTINUE to idolize Tiber Septim, who had dragons in his ARMY. There are a massive bunch of contradictions there.

Despite all this, I think the problem I have with them and the problem Bethesda presents is that Paarthurnax is portrayed solely as a kindly dragon who wants to help humanity and is the sole reason that Alduin was defeated the first time around and has honestly and truly repented. The whole "I greet you as a brother dovah" thing really made me like him and was almost the point I stopped thinking of my character as an Imperial and more as a dragon in Imperial skin (though that little bit may have also been influenced by my love of dragons in general). (not only the fact his was voiced by Wes Johnson, I believe, and

So then, WHAM! Blades say "oh yeah, that nice guy who helps you out all the time? Kill him, he did terrible things in the past." It comes COMPLETELY out of left field. I did it, I felt terrible about it, especially when Arngeir just says "what the hell, hero?" One of the first mods I want to make is a mod that allows you to call the Blades out on all their contradictions and bring them over to your side... or maybe have Delphine step down as Blades Grandmaster and allow the player to select a companion to take her spot.

Okay, now you're just blatantly being obtuse, or you didn't read those links (or you just skimmed to the parts you found relevant in support of your argument). One of the very first things mentioned in the 'dragon hit list' is that most of the ancient Akaviri kills can't be listed because they didn't take notes, and so the list is very very incomplete.

Further, there were at least two different books up there that stated outright the Akaviri Dragonguard-turned-blades continued killing dragons AFTER swearing fealty to Reman Cyrodiil, which was long, long, long after the Dragon Wars, and a few minor hints that Reman Cyrodiil and Tiber Septim might've been dragonslayers themselves. No, it never states outright that the reason the Akaviri came looking for the Dragonborn was because the Dragonborn is the most effective dragonslayer there is, or that the Dragonborn's purpose is explicitly to kill dragons, but that's rather like saying a gun's purpose is not necessarily to shoot someone, despite being designed, manufactured, purchased, and wielded for the explicit purpose of being a lethal weapon. I mean, a gun can act as a deterrent, but only because of the threat of being shot. A gun can be used to hammer nails into a wall, or to prop up a bookshelf, or as a pretty piece of decoration, but so can an awful lot of other things, and that is not what a gun excels at, or what a gun was designed to do.

Since the Dragonborn is a person, rather than an object, obviously they can choose to act differently. They can choose to avoid ever killing any dragon at all, or only certain kinds of dragons, or only on Tuesdays, or only if that dragon looks at them funny. But none of that changes the fact that the Dragonborn is explicitly the otherwise immortal dragon's kryptonite, that all of their powers seem to revolve around fighting dragons with their own weapons, and that their powers are fueled explicitly by the souls of dead dragons.

Again and again and again, the group that became the Blades is listed as having killed and hunted dragons. In their own words, they talk about the dragons they know have been killed, and the dragons that still need killing. Ancient Dragonborn are listed as having killed dragons. Not-quite-as-ancient Dragonborn are rumored to have killed dragons, or at least to have allowed dragonkilling to go on via their servants, the Blades.


I'm really tired of having to argue that the ancient order of dragonslayers and the most effective living weapon against dragons are somehow not intrisically tied to killing dragons.

And obviously, yes, since Tiber Septim used dragons in his army and made deals with them, dragonslaying and the Dragonborn is not an absolute thing. Much like any weapon, the Dragonborn does not have to wield their power against everyone, and when specifics are mentioned, the Dragonguard/Blades appear to have been focusing on those dragons most deeply involved in the ancient Dragon War. While the ability to summon Odahviing in front of the Blades is obviously a gameplay and story segregation thing, you can also argue the Blades have already killed Odahviing, a far lesser criminal than Parthurnaax, who has, shortly after his thousands-of-years-dead resurrection, been subdued and turned to the Dragonborn's side. That the Dragonborn can call a dragon out of the sky to do his bidding is pretty clear proof that Odahviing's under the Dragonborn's control, isn't it? And Odahviing, having already been slain, has at least faced some form of punishment for his crimes during the Dragon Wars, crimes that were far less than Alduin's right-hand dragon, the second oldest.

Paarthurnax has never been slain. As far as we know, he's never even been fought. He's never been punished in any way beyond his own self-inflicted penance, the Dragonborn cannot and does not order him around, and the only 'proof' that Esbern and Delphine have that Paarthurnax is not playing a long and crafty game is the word of the newly minted Dragonborn, and the Dragonborn's only proof is that Paarthurnax says so. In other words, the Blades, ancient dragonslayers with a personal vendetta against Paarthurnax, an ancient genocidal maniacal dragon, are being expected to TAKE SAID GENOCIDAL MANIAC AT HIS WORD that he won't go off and be a genocidal maniac anymore, even though now the leadership spot is vacant and he's outright stated he intends to seize it.

I mean, that's a pretty sweet deal for an immortal, isn't it? Scoot off scot free for any crimes you committed because you chose a good time to turn against your old boss, your brother, and helped the mortals off him twice. And oh look, now there's an opening for a new dragon boss, and you can go and take that, because as the second eldest you're conveniently next in line for the job. But don't worry, guys, I know I was the Cruel Tyrant in ages past, and I've never had to face any sort of consequences for all the people I subjugated and killed, and that the passage of time means pretty well nothing to me because I live forever, but I've turned over a new leaf and I totally won't let this new power go to my head and start trying to enslave you all again.

...I mean, really? People can't understand why the Blades would object to this? Why they'd refuse to follow a Dragonborn who thought this was all a good idea? Let's ignore that the Dragonborn is the PC for the moment, and pretend you, the PC, are instead in Delphine and Esbern's shoes. You've never met Paarthurnax, will never be allowed to meet Paarthurnax, the only things you know about Paarthurnax is that he was essentially dragon Hitler, committed horrible horrible crimes against humanity, enslaved humanity, and tried to destroy humanity, then turned traitor and allowed humanity to bring the whole thing down, THEN skived off to a mountain and has been hiding behind the protection of a bunch of old men who are perfectly willing to let the entire world be destroyed rather than intervene to save it. You're a member of an order that was founded on two duties: protect the Dragonborn and kill dragons, specifically dragons that would threaten life as we know it, and as far as you know, you are the last remains of that order in the entire world.

And now the Dragonborn, someone you've only recently encountered (yes, the Blades do a lot of stuff with you, but they've had decades of experience being Blades, and you've had what...a weekend? A few months being Dragonborn?) is telling you, 'look guys, that ancient war criminal who's been hiding up on a mountain for thousands of years in order to avoid punishment for all the terrible things he did to your ancestors? He's not so bad. He's actually a great guy! In fact, he has no intention of doing those things again, despite the fact that he has the perfect opportunity now that I've offed Alduin, and well, he might have said outright he was taking the vacant leadership position, but no really, it's fine. He told me he's not going to do those things any more, and I'm sure he's a dragon of his word, despite well, my main argument as to his trustworthiness being that he's demonstrated a fair amount of treachery.'

Would you buy that line, in that position? I sure wouldn't.

But they never even give us the chance to say anything (I kept hoping the "About Paarthurnax" line would eventually change...), and my Dragonborn wouldn't say anything like that. It'd probably be more like (using your template):

"Look guys, that ancient war criminal who's been hiding up on a mountain for thousands of years in order to avoid punishment for all the terrible things he did to your ancestors? He's not so bad. He's actually a great guy! In fact, he has no intention of doing those things again, despite the fact that he has the perfect opportunity now that I've offed Alduin and well, he might have said outright he was taking the vacant leadership position, but no really, it's fine. If he ever so much as breathes fire on some farmer's goat, I will personally hunt the son of a [censored] down and ram Struundinvey [my overpowered axe of insane +smithing skill boosts that one shots all but Ancient dragons] up his ass. So could you just chill, Delphine? And yes, Esbern, I completely agree that his good actions to not make up for his war crimes, but he's the only gods-damned dragon in the entire gods-damned UNIVERSE willing to NOT eat humans on his own, and might be able to actually rein in a lot of the other dragons, so that one day, our great great grandchildren can actually chill the hell off and NOT be worried about what that loud angry sound was."

Am I right in saying that the issue was not with the Blades decision to obstinately want Paarthurnax dead, rather in the limited choices you as the Dragonborn and PC had available to you?

This is exactly how I felt. I love dragons. Dragons were always my childhood Thing. A TES game in which dragons are actually present and flying around en masse and I get to learn how to speak like them and do some of their cool stuff? That's AWESOME. And then Beth gives me a badass kindly old dragon who isn't interested in trying to melt my face off, but instead talks to me and talks dragon at me and is intensely reasonable and likeable and sounds awesome and wants to help me finish off the big bad dragon trying to destroy everything? I'm putty in their hands.

The whiplash of then being expected to kill him by people who have, in every previous game and up until this point in this game always been my allies and general good and heroic guys? Oh and guess what, that dragon who instantly endeared himself to you and has been so nice and helpful and awesome used to be one of the worst of the worst in the ancient Dragon War you've heard so much about, not only a bad guy but the second-in-command to the Big Bad he's trying to help you kill? That's entirely on purpose. It's meant to be a punch to the stomach. It's meant to feel like a betrayal. It's meant to elicit strong emotional reactions. That is exactly why Beth wrote those sequences the way they did. Suddenly two groups of people you've become very attached to are asking you to choose between them, and you don't get to weasel your way out of that choice by taking a third option.

My argument is simply that the Blades aren't pulling this out of their butts, that it's not bad writing, that from their perspective, they are entirely in the right, and that to them, the Dragonborn refusing to do so is also a betrayal.

For me, personally, it's a little of both. I understand Esbern's side of the argument a lot more than Delphine's, but he'll be dead in a good 2 or 3 years, so what's going to stop Delphine from completely screwing up the Blades we know and love after that?


I still say I should at least be given the option to seal them out of the Reman temple thingy. I wanna make that place my new palace.

That would have been fantastic, and yes, I do wish that we had the option to say something like that (though not exactly like that, as, well, Beth would have to give us several options based on what they THINK the Dragonborn might say).

...However, making a good argument is not a guarantee that they'll go for it. Would you have been more satisfied if you had the option to say this, but the Blades still said 'no, I'm sorry, we can't take that chance, he's gotta go'? This maintains the 'choose between them' thing that Beth clearly wanted, but also allows you to make a passionate argument on Paarth's behalf.

Actually, according to another poster I was reading, you can console trick things by completing the 'kill Paarthurnax' quest using console codes, without actually killing Paarthurnax, and it apparently works because the Greybeards merely check to see if he's alive, and the Blades' check to see if the quest has been completed. I'd be all for a mod that merely turns this into a '(Lie) Yes, Paarthurnax lies dead at the top of the mountain' dialogue option, because I'm a dirty cheat who likes to have her cake and eat it too, and it's not like the Blades can go and check for themselves. But I was also someone who always wanted the ability to lie about killing House in New Vegas to both Caesar and Colonel Moore, because again, it's not like they can check, and I liked the idea of playing a guile-hero. I'm stupid with the construction set though, so I could never figure out how to do that.

"Which is better, to be born good or to overcome your evil nature through effort?"

Naafiliargus NEVER died, and he openly served in Tiber Septim's armies. Tiber Septim is stated to have offered protection to Dragons- There Be Dragons- "He made a pact with the few remaining dragons, swearing to protect them if they would serve him." None of those Dragons ever died. Naafiliargus openly served Tiber Septim. He never died, he probably fought in the Dragon War. And one of those dragons was Paarthurnax. Why, then, did the Blades not cut off all ties with Tiber Septim, say "Go kill that dragon and we'll help you again." I highly doubt that the Blades, who inhabited Sky Ruler Temple, never transported their lore to Cloud Ruler Temple or some other stronghold, saying "Hey, Blades, if you ever get a chance to ask a Dragonborn to go kill this evil dragon, make sure you demand it." I would venture it stopped being common knowledge when Cloud Ruler Temple was destroyed. But I do concede a point there- we have no verifiable date on that matter. It could very well be that the Blades didn't know when Tiber Septim was around. But I doubt that.

We're not arguing that Paarth didn't do terrible things in the past. We're arguing that the Blades have no right to demand ANYTHING of the Dragonborn. EVERYTHING we know states that the Blades serve and protect the Dragonborn. Nothing says that they can refuse to serve. Instead, we're hit with Delphine's twisted version of the oath- Dragonborn is the Ultimate Dragon Slayer, and that's it. That's the only reason we protect them. We are their allies, not their servants. If they are so dead set on PROTECTING the Dragonborn, why don't they get up and do it? Because all they do is hide in their little temple- that we opened for them- training their new recruits- that we brought them- occasionally hunt down Dragons with the Dragonborn, but never do they say "hey, this guy is the only hope the world has, we need to protect him." I can understand that they are very paranoid, but still, their oaths are their oaths. Serve and Protect the Dragonborn. They fail on BOTH of those counts.

This is the lore forum, not the game forum. We are all well aware that Dragonborn means a hell of a lot more than 'ultimate dragon slayer'. Only Dragonborn can light the Dragonfires (before Martin made that impossible and unnecessary). The Blades stopped being pure dragon slayers a long time ago. Delphine openly states "I remembered that's what we USED to be." Maybe she's taking the Blades back to their roots.

In addition, as I state, the whole 'Go kill him or we will not help you under any circumstances' aspect rather falls apart when Alduin himself is flying around Skyrim, and the Dragonborn needs help. The dragon that did do terrible things is a much bigger target than the dragon who repented and has been nothing but help.

I'm planning a mod that makes a big dialogue with Delphine and Esbern where you have to bring them over to your side and convince them you're not some secret Dragon spy or whatever nonsense they are afraid you are. You'll get bonus options for quoting from books you have in your inventory, you'll get points added or subtracted based on how well you argue, and at the very end, if you break a points threshold, you'll be told "yeah, we see your line of thought." If you fail to make your point, you have one of two choices: A.) Kill Paarth. or B.) Kill Delphine and Esbern and replace them with companions.

I'd very likely play your mod, as above.

Naarf is not Parthurnaax. There's no evidence that Paarth fought for Tiber Septim (and every evidence he's been up that mountain since the end of the Dragon War), and while it is very likely that Tiber Septim knew Paarth existed, this is, in the end, conjecture, not proof, based on the fact that Tiber Septim visited the Greybeards. Naarf not being Paarthurnax is important--first because the issue is over Paarthurnax in specific, not all dragons (witness Odahviing), and Paarthurnax's crimes, and second because there are many different types of dragons in TES lore, and as I recall, the red dragons that Tiber Septim dealt with, while likely also being some relation to Akatosh (unless there are dragons, and then Dragons), are not the sorts of dragons you fight in Skyrim, and therefore, may or may not have been involved in the Dragon War, which was a specific series of battles that happened in Skyrim's very early history (not the entire world). Naarf may have fought in the Dragon War, but seeing as we don't fight any (to my understanding) city-sized red dragons, he also very well may not have. Several books speak to the fact that dragon worship/tribute was a common thing in the ancient world, and that the outbreak of war in the area of Skyrim was an anomaly for the time, attributed either to the dragons being particularly nasty (the accusations against Paarth and Alduin would bear this out) or the actions of one or a few dragon priests (no actual evidence in the game that this is so, though obviously the dragon priests existed and were on the side of the dragons).

Further...that same book you're quoting also says that the remaining dragons all seemed to vanish at once. We have no idea what happened to Naarf, do we? Dragons are immortal, they are either slain, or they live forever, so he's either dead or in hiding, and that bit about Tiber Septim ascending on the souls of dragons, while listed as far fetched in the books, certainly bears a considerable resemblence to what we see in the game.

You say the Blades have no right to demand anything of the Dragonborn (I honestly don't see it as a demand, more of a 'look, we can't keep working with you if you're going to let that guy live, so until then, we've got a problem). They don't attack you, or try to force you to go kill him beyond withdrawing their support (and even then, they don't actually follow through, because they're still helping you in covert ways with the dragon walls, and overt ways such as showing up with Odahviing's name), but does the Dragonborn have a right to walk in and say 'look, I know better than you, despite your decades and decades worth of experience, because I'm the Dragonborn. Sure, you've been hunted to near extinction, and I was nowhere to be found to stand up for you, sure you've had to go it on your own for two hundred years, sure, your ancestors were horrifically subjugated and slaughtered to the point where they were willing to stand up en masse and, to quote one book 'die by the thousands' rather than put up with it any more, sure Paarth is near as guilty as Alduin for that whole events that led to the Dragon War thing, sure his crimes were so awful they've been remembered for thousands of years, but I'm the Dragonborn, and because I'm the Dragonborn, I say that you should forget all of that and just follow my lead, since that's what you're supposed to do.' Does the Dragonborn have a right to essentially say 'get over it' to Esbern, the lore fiend keenly aware of exactly what crimes Paarth committed, and 'just trust me, because I trust him on his word alone' to Delphine, a woman who has only survived thirty years of being actively hunted by the Thalmor by being utterly paranoid and refusing to trust anyone or anything?

I mean, if that's all it took to get them to agree to the matter, I'd call THAT bad writing.

EDIT: Keep in mind, neither Delphine nor Esbern have ever met a Dragonborn. The last Dragonborn was Martin Septim, over two hundred years ago, long before either of them was born. This whole 'find a Dragonborn and protect him and let him guide you' thing was, up until they met you, entirely theoretical. As far as they were concerned, Martin was the last Dragonborn there would ever likely be, and not only have they never actually had a Dragonborn TO guide them, for the last thirty years they haven't had anyone they could turn to but themselves for guidance at all. The Empire certainly doesn't seem to have any kind of interest in protecting them, their order has been shattered, and they've been entirely on their own for three decades, without even orders from a superior Blade to follow. Suddenly ceding all decision making and free will to the wisdom of someone you've only recently encountered, Dragonborn or not, is easier said than done.

I'm in the army, if my commanding officer told me that a certian enemy is no longer a threat, I don't get the option to say "well I'm not serving you until you, my superior, kill him." That would be absurd. If I tried to kill the enemy after he's been declared not a threat I'd be thrown in jail for murder. Now get this, they have a greater commitment to the Dragonborn than I do my CO. The Dragonborn is not just their commander, he's the individual they've sworn their very lives to by becoming Blades, and who happens to have just saved the world, and possess far more insight into these matters than Esbern and Delphine could ever hope to acquire. Believe it or not they have no experience being Blades, because as you say they've never served a Dragonborn, and serving the Dragonborn is what Blades do.

You're the only one with insight into what's really going on. You're the one out in the field while they sit back in the temple. You're the one who has personally discoursed with those in the Hall of Valor, with the Greybeards, with even the enemy himself. You're the only one who has looked through the Elder Scroll and gained its insights. You're the one who has slain more dragons than every other Blade in history combined, and yet they're going to think you're turning your back on being a dragonslayer (even though that's not even their real goal)?

Remember, even if the Blades are there to kill dragons (which they aren't), the PC is not a Blade. The PC is the one the Blades serve, its their job to kill a dragon if it needs doing, not yours. Anything you do is a service to them that isn't required of you.

A few minor things:
- Paarth isn't on the mountain to avoid punishment, he's there to monitor the time rift.
-If you'd read your sources you'd see that those unrecoded dragon slayings are from before their inception and therfore don't play into my previous point.
-The bit about the gun is irrelevant. I'm good at killing dragons becauae I essentially am one. Your argument would be like saying daedra are good at killinh daedra, therefore thats what they're meant to do.
-You call Paarth a genocidal maniac, which is simply a lie. He was never genocidal, or a maniac (though perhaps a tyrant). Esbern and Delphine, and the Thalmor, are the only genocidal folks we meet.
-The Blades are completey pulling it out of their butts. Not only do they have no precedent, but they have no right. Dragon-killing was always self defense or a means to an end, it was never about killing all dragons. It also was never about exacting justice, the Blades are not police, or judges, it's not their call to make. You are their guide, byt they don't want your guidance. As you said, they have a personal vendetta to fulfill.

You're no longer responding directly to any of my points and have instead taken up reapeating arguments I already put down, so I'll assume you can't refute them.

Both, which just exacerbates the issue.

It's understandable that they'd want to bring Paarthurnax to justice for the crimes he did, but their reasoning is highly suspect when you take the last few thousand years into account. Considering what Paarthurnax did of his own volition after committing those atrocities (turn against Alduin, reject his nature, and help mankind), considering what he still does to this day (keeps mankind's mastery of Thu'um alive, which is their greatest tool against the dragons), and considering what he just did moments ago (helped you in your quest to defeat Alduin and tries to get the other dragons to stand down), their continued insistence on his death makes their brand of "justice" look more like vengeance, like they care more about spilling dragon blood than actually stopping the threat that dragons pose. Continued aggression against the dragons is just going to beget continued aggression from the dragons (putting mankind at risk), but actual peace and understanding can just as well stop the fighting without the need of more deaths for either the dragons or mankind.

Also when you consider that Delphine and Esbern have everything to lose and nothing to gain by their ultimatum, it makes them look like fools.

I haven't yet gotten to this part of the MQ myself, but the way I understand it, the choice is basically 'do or don't'. You either kill Paarth at their "request", or you don't and leave the task unfinished*. You can't actually side with Paarth against Delphine and Esbern's demand that you feel is unjust. You can't try to convince them to back off, even with a assurance that you'll take personal responsibility for Paarth's actions and kill him if he goes rogue. You can't kick them out and restart a new order of Blades without them.

* To be fair, a lot of Skyrim's quests have this problem. You get quests before you even know it's coming, and you either have to do it or leave it unfinished forever in your log book (I'm looking at you, Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood, and "Blessings of Nature"). But it's an extra punch to the gut that it occurs with such a hotly contentious issue. Beth had to have known that some players would refuse the Blades' call for his death (very fervently, apparently), yet provided no path for such players to take other than to ignore the quest. You can't even tell the Blades off to purposely fail it.

I have to reflect kartikeya's feeling of not understanding where this sentiment comes from. The history of the Blades is very sketchy, at best. We have one complete book about them written after they had disbanded, probably by someone who had no direct knowledge. Sure they swore an oath to guard the emperor, who happens to be a dragonborn, but where's the part about them swearing to obey his every single whim and gesture at all times no matter what? This reasoning is based only on circumstantial evidence.

There is no good reason to think their obedience is unconditional. They are an extremely old organization that has no doubt seen a lot of changes over the years, especially during the time when they were wiped out by the Thalmor. They may have recanted this "oath" to serve the dragonborn, or it might never have been real to begin with. Are they somehow above lying to people to serve their own interests? Sure protecting the dragonborn is/was obviously a priority but it may not be the priority. We have no way of knowing what's gone on with them in the time since the oblivion crisis, or what their real reason for existence is. Until we have the "Blades Charter" or something, I'm not going to buy that Delphine and Esbern are both just being bad Blades for no discernible reason.

What a strange accusation. You haven't put down these arguments, you've decided to ignore them, while ignoring all evidence that backs them up. At this point I'm going to just go with what you told me to do. Cite your sources. Give me sources, with quotes, that back you up on the following:

1. The entire purpose of the Akaviri dragonslayers-who became the Dragonguard-who became the Blades is only and SOLELY to serve the Dragonborn and do exactly what he says, regardless of what that is, for no other reason than 'He's the Dragonborn'.

2. That the ancient Akaviri dragonslayers-who became the Dragonguard-who became the Blades were not originally dragonslayers who only killed dragons to find the Dragonborn, and that dragonslaying is entirely incidental to their entire purpose as the servants of the Dragonborn. Insofar as I've been able to find, the exact reason as to WHY the Akaviri were looking for the Dragonborn is never stated, only inferred.

3. That the Blades/Dragonborn relationship is one of servant to master, or, as in your example, direct commanding officer to subordinate soldier, and they are never allowed to disobey the Dragonborn. I did my library searching late last night, but I don't remember the word 'serve' ever being used.

Further, this again ignores my point above that Delphine and Esbern have never served a Dragonborn. When you join the army, you have numerous commanding officers that are there, giving you orders, every single day. Let's say you end up behind enemy lines, and all of your commanding officers are dead. You are being hunted day in and day out by the enemy, who will kill you if they find you. You can't even trust your fellow soldiers, because the enemy can and will impersonate them, or capture them and torture them until they tell them where you are and how to get you. This is your situation for thirty years (in Delphine's case, this means it's been her situation for at least half of her entire life). No support, no direction, no orders, no real glimmer of hope that anything will get better. And THEN, one day, a complete stranger, someone who has not been a part of your struggle at all, says 'hey, I'm actually the special dude you guys were dedicated to protect, who hasn't actually been around to guide your now decades destroyed order for several hundred years, but I'm here now, so fall into line, soldier'. And hey, you work with the guy, and turns out he's who he says he is, and turns out, he's pretty good at what he should be good at, and turns out he even saves the world, so that's great, right? So then you're like 'hey, so, there's this war criminal who did horrific things, who has never faced punishment, might do horrific things again, and who my dying order has always wanted to punish, because it's kind've what we used to do, and you can walk in the front door and take care of the matter easily, could you take care of that?' And this person says 'hell no, he's my buddy'.

I mean, really? The first thing you actually ask this special prophecied guy to do for YOU, and not only does he refuse, but he's actually buddy buddy with this guy? Unlocking the Blades Temple gave the Blades a place to stay, sure, but the reason you went there wasn't to give them some nice digs, it was to get more information on Alduin. Sure, technically, if he's your big general guy, you should do as he says without question, but that's entirely ignoring the massively world-changing circumstances of the situation. It's ignoring the Blades aren't slavish automatons, they're people. And I don't think you'd be so glib if the PC was one of these Blades rather than the all important Dragonborn.

Of course, you say this means they have NEVER BEEN BLADES. I think they would disagree with you. I think every Blade who has lived in a time when the Dragonborn has not been around would disagree with you. I'm not convinced being Dragonborn gives you the right to declare whether someone is, or isn't a Blade, because the Dragonborn is not and has never been a Blade. The Dragonborn is not the Grandmaster. He doesn't recruit (Delphine will take pretty much anyone you bring, but you're not saying 'hey, make this person a Blade' in the game, you're saying 'I think this person might make a good one' and she's agreeing with you), he doesn't train them, he doesn't give them day to day orders. He's the special guy they revere because he's got magic shouty powers and he can kill dragons real good.

You're ignoring the entire reason I'm referring to Paarthurnax as a genocidal maniac. I'm speaking from the point of view of Esbern and Delphine. They don't know about the time rift. All their records refer to Paarthurnax as a terrible person who did terrible things who betrayed HIS superior officer for reasons unknown and then flew off to hide on a mountain where they couldn't reach him. His superior officer who was pretty intent on eating the whole world and subjugating mankind. And THEY aren't genocidal, because they aren't demanding you KILL ALL DRAGONS FOREVER. They don't say 'dude, you need to put down Odahviing too'. They say this one dragon, who HAS committed terrible crimes, who HAS NOT ever been punished for it, needs to die. And from all reports, once you do that, they don't make such a demand again, and are perfectly happy to go about their Blades business.

How can they have no precedent when their entire beginning and much of their history even after becoming the Dragonguard involved slaying dragons? How can they have no precedent when Paarth is not only a dragon who did terrible things, BUT THEIR OWN ANCIENT RECORDS SAY that he's a dragon who needs to be brought to justice? You make it sound like they just found some book written by random, unaffiliated Nords that said 'and by the way, Paarthurnax svcks'. This was a record written by the Blades which says 'Paarthurnax needs to be brought to justice'. That kind've blows the whole 'there's no precedent, they have no right, this isn't about justice' thing out of the water when it's right there in text that you can read for yourself that was written centuries ago by Blades serving a Dragonborn.

Yeah, they seem to have decided they don't want your guidance, because in their view, your guidance really svcks and isn't in line with their oaths, their conscience, or their priorities (beyond 'let's save the world', which again, THEY CONTINUE TO HELP YOU TO DO, as much as they are actually able).

Heck, even if we go with the notion that the Blades exist only to follow the Dragonborn's every word and whim, no questions asked, Delphine and Esbern have clearly decided that's not a great idea, and that their oaths that require them to insist on Paarthurnax being brought to justice are more important than their oaths to follow the whim of some guy who hasn't shared in any of their struggles, and until a very short time ago, was nowhere to be found when their order desperately needed him.

I didn’t read the whole topic yet, I just got to page 6 , but am I the only one who thinks that Parthy has always wanted to be the leader of the Dragons but knows that he can’t defeat his brother. He teaches people the thu’um yet he goes far far away when they start to fight Alduin. The translation of his name is also kind of scary. He also waited on top of the mountain for thousands of years without trying to reeducate dragons because he knew it would make him a number one target for Alduin when he returned. He just stays there and bides his time. He doesn’t fight the dragonborn because he knows that even if he wins Alduin will kill him much MUCH slower when he gets around to it. Something about him has always bothered me, like strange riddles he would say out of nowhere that didn’t make any sense at all. What did he mean when he said that those that try to save the world hasten its end? I AM TRYING TO SAVE THE WORLD HERE PARTHY!!!

Though it's really nothing like that. There's far more reasons to spare Paarth than just because he's your "buddy", as has been mentioned numerous times.


That's not true. The first thing she asks you to do is to kill the dragon Alduin resurrects in Kynesgrove, which you do in front of her eyes. She then asks you to infiltrate the Thalmor Embassy (you know, those horrific elves that she has been hiding from for fear of her life and which has effective control of the whole damn Empire? yeah, go mingle with them and steal info from under their noses), which you do and apparently almost get killed for. All the while you continue killing dragons, and later open your "home" to them. For them to then turn their backs because you refuse a demand to kill a specific dragon, for good reason, is out of line.

That's not what I said. I said it was the first thing the Blades ask you to do FOR THEM. Everything else was a means to saving the world. Kynesgrove wasn't just to see if you could kill a dragon, it was to see if Delphine's theory that the dragons are being resurrected, and that this is fanning out from a certain direction, was correct, which it was. (And you know, the few people at Kynesgrove not being slaughtered was pretty good too) You don't go into the Thalmor Embassy to find documents for Delphine's benefit, you go into the Thalmor Embassy to see if they have something to do with, or know anything you don't about, the return of the dragons. Finding out about Esbern was an unexpected boon, because Delphine thought he was long dead and had no idea the Thalmor would actually have information on him. You can't even have a dialogue with her about her own dossier. Going to Sky Haven Temple was to find out information on Alduin, and so on. Wanting Paarthurnax dead is the first thing the Blades ask you to do that's solely for their own benefit (if you can even call it benefit, since their reasons are 'justice for long-dead non-Blades' and 'it'd be great to make sure he can't betray you and then lead the dragons to murderface us all again', which doesn't actually directly help THEM beyond how it helps everyone else).

The Dragonborn has good reasons to want to keep Paarthurnax alive. And the Blades have good reasons for wanting him dead. It's subjective, which reasons you take to be the 'good' ones, based on your own personal feelings toward the issue.

Plus well, I can't speak to whether it's out of line. Maybe it is. My entire argument in this thread has been that it's perfectly understandable, and from their point of view, the right thing to do. I don't agree with them, and neither does my Dragonborn PC.

I wouldn't put much stock in his name, since he did start out as a "bad guy". I mean, it'd be pretty silly for Alduin's right-hand man to be called "Fluffy Peaceful Kittens" or something.


The dragons that remained were already beaten into submission, as we see with the Septims having control over them. The ones being revived now are those that were killed in the Dragon War or didn't otherwise learn to take a subservient role to mankind, and which is what Paarth (it's assumed) is going out to do. Get them to submit, or else.

And FWIW, Alduin is still not gone forever. He's going to come back again, just not for a while.


It's not like he was doing nothing, though. He was leading the Greybeards and helping them master their Thu'um, so that mankind doesn't lose the most important weapon they have against the dragons.

I thought thu’um words sent out roots that went to your very soul. I doubt dragons are named like humans are, I am guessing that they are born with their name because those words are the core of their being.
Alduin can resurrect dragons because he is the son of Akatosh, so is Parthy.
We don’t know what happened to Alduin, he might have been absorbed by his father for all we know. There is no reason to believe he is 100% dead, but there is no reason to believe that he will ever be able to come back either.
Except he preached pacifism to them, the Graybeards did not want to fight back they were willing to sit back and die so what’s the point of the best weapon against dragons when its imposible to get them to use it.
I actualy didn’t kill him yet, but a small voice in my head keeps thinking that it is a terrible idea to leave him behind. He is not as arrogant as Alduin, he will just deny you battle and win by simply outliving you.