I for one didn't kill Paarthurnax. Maybe because I seem to lack this strange love of "Justice"* that people keep going on about. The blades and the greybeards both had flaws and neither were particularly effective at protecting the world, let's be honest the blades weren't very effective at all. They make a big deal out of protecting and guiding the dragonborn but only while he does what they say. All in all I feel they both forgot their place from time to time, I often felt like saying "You're not Dragonborn. I am" to both Arngeir and the blades. Arngeir raised a good question though, something like "If the blades hadn't been so vicious in their pursuit of genocide, perhaps there would be more dragons willing to aid in the fight against Alduin". Paarthurnax didn't hold the blades' dragon hatred against humanity, maybe we shouldn't hold Alduin's hatred of humanity against the dragons.

* Seriously though who does it help? Ok so Paarthurnax did some bad [censored] in the past, what's killing him going to do? Apart from make you feel better that is.

Akatosh lost his crown? That could also mean that Shor is King.

Justice...

It's a difficult question, can somebody truly redeem himself, can a person truly pay for the atrocoties that person commited and depending on that one should decide the answer. However the blades have a valid reason for wanting him dead. In the end, I don't know if it will make a difference, Pararthanax is a powerful dragon for sure, and has helped humanity in the past. However has he helped them because he hated Alduin or has he helped them because he did not believe killing them would serve a purpose? Is he the head of the Greybeards because he believes in the new way of the voice, or because it helps reduce the amount of enemies he has?



I don't think Akatosh lost his crown, Alduin was Akatosh his first. It doesn't mean anything changed regarding to Akatosh... At least I don't think it has.

I personally chose the dragon over the blades... I found the fact that they tried to force me into killing him or else they will not help me anymore rather annoying, so I just left them.

Thats the thing, Paarthanax never hated Alduin. Hell, he wasn't very pleased when you finally went up and killed his "brother." The thing I believe he realized though, was that the path Alduin was on was self destructive to the Dovah, and should they continue to pursue his ideals, it would lead to the destruction of his kind.


If this was really the case, I could understand that, but the Blades aren't fanatically genocidal to the point that all dragons must die. Hell, you capture a dragon, release it, hop on its back and ride into the sunset isn't exactly what a dragon slayer should be doing. Hell, you even call that dragon to toast your enemies if you really want to. The Blades aren't making it a issue about "Your dragonborn, you go kill dragons" its "Justice must be served."

Paarthanax' response to you saying "Alduin deserved to die" is something like "yup, that's true". So I think Paarthanax has grown at least some kind of conscience from all that meditating (or perhaps he's just messing with you). He doesn't seem to think he himself deserves to die, though. He says something like "is it better to be born good, or to be born evil and manage to change your ways and repent?"

I dunno. I didn't kill him, anyway, because it's not like the Blades provided a good explanation for why he should die, and he seems like a nice chap.

Forgive me as I invoke Godwin's Law, because I can't think of any other apt comparison.

Let me propose a hypothetical situation in which Hitler lived, fled to a different country, felt immense remorse for the atrocities he ordered and did everything in his power to help make up for it.

Now imagine that today, you hear a news report that Hitler is alive, well, has built dozens of orphanages for Jewish children, helped fund construction of synagogues, etc. But the fact of the matter remains, he is STILL Hitler, he still killed millions, and he hasn't been brought to justice for that.

Do you forgive Hitler for his past transgressions, or do you take him to the International Criminals Court and see him executed for the Holocaust and such?

The Blades have this situation, and they choose to follow their oaths- 'justice must be served'. I sided with the Blades, namely because I hate the Thalmor more than anything (even Alduin) and the god-damned Greybeards aren't going to help me take them down. With time, the Blades could rebuild and get vengeance against the Dominion.

Well...Hitler built orphanages, helped fun construction of synagogues, etc. But he didn't save the lives of everyone that currently exists.

Sorry Parth isn't a good Hitler comparison. Alduin is. Alduin ordered the subjugation and destruction of the humans. Parth thought this was a terrible idea and instead taught the voice to them to help stop Alduin.


I'd say dragons are a much better ally than blades. For proof, check the last 300 years.

I don't think that'll work. Hitler seems more like Alduin. Paarthunax seems like Himmler, who tried to defect to the Allies and help them beat Hitler. Same as what Paarthunax was doing with you and the Blades: Helping you to stop his former master.

Of course, the Allies weren't interested in dealing with a war criminal. Same as the Blades weren't intersted in dealing with Paarthunax.

Hitler- Alduin
Himmler- Paarthunax
Allied Powers- Blades

Then again, Paarthunax had eons to mediate on his urges and seems genuine in trying to help. Himmler's more of a coward trying to run away from both the Nazis and svcking up to the Allied Powers so they don't hurt him.

Paarthanax did do horrible things to man in ancient times, but also helped them revolt against the dragons.

Flash fowards THOUSANDS of years (many life-times for you people :rolleyes: )
He teachs the graybeards the way of peace, he meditates faithfully everyday to ward off his aggressive nature.
He gives Dovahkiin the key to saving literally everyone in this kalpa.

So we hate a dragon that did something maaaany life times ago that he has repented on? There isn't a good real life anology to even compare this to.

I honestly feel that this whole assassination assignment from the Blades was tacked on without thought, the Blades don't really give a good reason to kill him other than "he's a dragon".
So now do we discriminate against a race of creatures because some bosmer woman with a CURVED. SWORD. :hubbahubba: said so?

The fact that Paarthurnax helped save the Kelpa means he's saved many times more lives then he's taken.

Hell, My Dragonborn has killed quiet a few people....

And we have no clue what instruction the Blades received from touching the temple glyphs. In Sky Haven are messages imbedded in messages. Blades are weapons we should wield only cautiously and considerately.

So in that case ít's a question of simple math?

Let's look at a few hypothetical situations then.

There is a train running towards a large group of people, for some reason I can't warn them. I can however throw one random guy in front of the train right now, forcing it to stop before it hits the other far larger group, should I be allowed too?

I've killed a 100+ people and intend to kill more, mostly for fun. But I also found a cure for cancer, I get arrested and tell the people that I will fabricate and distrubute this cure if I'm allowed to continue my murders. Would you let me continue or would you throw me in jail?

I'm a former warlord in Africa dealing in diamonds and stuff like that, my armies have killed and [censored] entire villages under my order, at age 60 after 40 years of doing this I felt sorry and started using my gathered wealth to build orphanages and what not, my programs have since then saved many more then I killed, I've become a public figure of hope as well uniting many people who now build for a better Africa. Nobody knows about my past. Now however you learn about my past, and want me thrown in jail, doing this will end all the charitable work I have done, would you go public and prosecute me? Or let me continue doing my good deeds?

In all cases math would suggest letting the (former) criminal go on, the end justifies the means and all that, but personally I don't think the end justifies the means is a good way to build a society. Sometimes strickt justice is needed.

The same mind that imagined Paarthurnax imagined everyone he killed. That mind is the same that imagined the god of Justice. The world is a mechanism and cold as a fryse hag's tit.

Everyone's guilty and innocent, when they're just pieces of a whole.

Yes but in all those cases, the world was going to be worse of in order to obtain said justice. Its a little illogical.

Cutting your nose off to spite your face kind of deal.

Yay. Ethics 101.

There isn't much point in trying to argue which is better or worse. You can only argue this when using a common frame of reference. For starters, do you hold that actions are intrinsically good, or bad, or should one look at the effects? Then comes the discussion of which actions are good, which are bad or what effects are good and which are bad and how they relate to each other. Etcetera, etcetera.

The problem in your example is that the situation is setup to create a conflict. Either by inaction you let 10 people die, or you actively take a life to save 10 people. Neither is really desirable.

The dilemma with the Blades and Paarthurnax is setup in more or less the same way. As such there is no absolute right way out. So what is important is that you know why you killed Paarthurnax or the Blades. Trying to convince others, well that might be an exercise in futility.



Well to put this into the proper (dragon) perspective. People order the subjugation and destruction of livestock every day. Sometimes on a larger scale in case of contagious diseases

Not sure if that rail road switch question is applicable in this case. In this case the way it is setup has a logically clear not just ethically clear decision. On one hand you have someone’s bad past and believe he should die and on the other you believe he has changed and his actions show it for the last couple eras.

Also the way the ethics question is setup you have the choice to kill one or ten. If you take the limit of that thought it is pretty clear what the logical choice to do is. But this isn't the real problem with the question setup is that it assumes you are in control and the choice is happening now. In this storyline the choices have already been made and you are the judge to let a reformed killer live or die on the request of a defunct group.

Normally it gets ethically tricky if you have to decide the death of one or another person to die and all you know is some inconsequential information like race or gender and there are no external biases present. This ethics question has no clear decision point and is meant to demonstrate how we all have inbuilt "evil/bias/etc" in us and the only other alternative in this special case is to be random but that in itself is questionable.

It just boils down to the fact that the Blades are logically inconsistent not just ethically wrong.

In ethics there are the grey areas but those are defined by the black and white clear cut extremes.

These cases all run under the assumption that the you let an individual continue to murder or use his ill-gotten resources for good which would taint those actions. I don't think that these cases apply in that there are no ongoing wrongs occurring and two he is not using the resources he gained from his past. This isn't even a case of strict justice as they are running under the presumption of future wrongdoing and don't want to allow that possibility. It is sort of like having mandatory death penalty for any murderer or possible murderer regardless of mitigating factors, context, etc...

I was slightly considering listening to the Blades in killing him.. that is until I spoke to him and he said "Which is worse: To be born good, or to overcome evil with great effort?" That got me. A lot of the examples one gives for evil being impossible to overcome are short term. Flipping from evil to good is pretty much like trying to quit smoking, there's that hill that you have to pass before it becomes easy to resist. What we have here is an evil dragon that for thousands of years put in the effort to turn away from evil. I'd say that's less than half a step short of being reborn entirely good. If Paarthurnax can't redeem himself through this effort.. then who can? Men and Mer don't even live that long, much less have an inborn, entirely natural reason to remain evil.

I don't think that Paarthurnax fought alongside the dragons in the Dragon War. I think the Dragon War started AFTER Kyne asked him to help the people, and teach them the Voice.
One of the tablets on the path up to High Hrothgar says this :

"Kyne called on Paarthunax, who pitied Man

Together they taught Men to use the Voice

Then Dragon War raged, Drangon against Tongue"


On another note, the book The Dragon War states that : "The ancient texts reveal that a few dragons took the side of men. Why they did this is not known. The priests of the Nine Divines claim it was Akatosh himself that intervened. From these dragons men learned magics to use against dragons." Implying that the siding with men came after the war started.
However this book also mentions: "In Atmora, where Ysgramor and his people came from, the dragon priests demanded tribute and set down laws and codes of living that kept peace between dragons and men. In Tamriel, they were not nearly as benevolent. It's unclear if this was due to an ambitious dragon priest, or a particular dragon, or a series of weak kings. Whatever the cause, the dragon priests began to rule with an iron fist, making virtual slaves of the rest of the population." No mention of Kyne.

So it's kinda fuzzy on how it all started. It could even be that the dragons didn't even start the maltreatment at all. It could have been all the dragon Priests' doing, and the war started(and dragons coming into play) when the situation could no longer be mended.

As for old P. I don't think that doing what the Blades ask you to do is justice (leaving emotion and sentiment out), doing it just like that, like a robot, with no proof.
Adding feelings into the equation, I don't think I could kill him anyway.

Paarthurnax says something that made me think it was Alduin who started things, at least in the big way. He mentions something about Alduin forsaking his rightful duties/place, or some such. If somebody really needs me to, I can try and dig up the exact quote. It's after you beat Alduin down on his home turf.

I'd kill Paarthunax on principle. I spent all that time in Morrowind running around as a Nord imagining what Skyrim must be like. The material available at the time about the voice and all of the grizzly gagged dudes hanging out in northern Skyrim seemed really interested. Then I finally get there and like nobody can use the voice except for Ulfric and a bunch of faux-Buddhists and their dragon Siddhartha. Everything that resulted from this watered-down, alien philosophy being tossed into the culture of Skyrim is completely and utterly boring compared to the mad world of shouting and snow that was painted in the pre-Skyrim books.

I'd kill Paarthunax several times just for his uninteresting take on life.

Haters gonna hate.

Well...we each have our own principles, and our view of what is interesting and what is not is different.
I personally find it interesting that not everybody can use the Voice. If that were the case, then it would be more of a mundane thing. "yeah Dovahkiin, we don't need you! We can teach Embry the Dragonrend, and he says we're his favorite
drinking buddies!"