The Blades' line of reasoning for killing Paarthurnax is absurd. So what, he sided with Alduin in the past, back when Alduin was the only side there was for him to take.

I honestly expected Delphine to be the hot-headed one of the pair, but I was disappointed with Esbern when he agreed with her. I just wish there was some way to get some closure on that part of the story if you choose not to kill Paarthurnax. The Blades are sworn to follow the Dragonborn; why can't I just say "No, Paarthurnax will live" and have them just deal with it?

What Wayman said. The Blades go on and on about how their oath forbids them from aiding me until Paarthurnax is dead.

I wanted to be like, "What. The. Hell, guys?!? You just spent the last hour or two talking about how awesome I am, and how you're sworn to follow the Dragonborn (again, going off on tangents about how awesome the Dragonborn is), and then when I refuse to kill one dragon because of a disagreement over what counts as "justice", you get all angsty and don't want to have anything else to do with me?"

They used to have their stuff together a lot better than that.

While I like both Parth and the Blades (more the whole organization than the individuals *looking at Delphine*) I do not like the Greybeards. I find myself wanting to kill Parth (I'm not actually at that point yet) just for my dislike of the Greybeards and there philosophy. I liked then at first, the one who actually talks (Asgrnier, or something like that) seemed to have a "with great power comes great responsibility" vibe to him. But as I talk to him more and more (and go through the story) I find how their philosophy is less Spiderman using his power for the betterment of others; and more "while we have power, we're not gonna use it help because it's too powerful".

The Greybeards have the power to end the Skyrim Civil War with just a few words, but instead of doing that they let all those people down bellow die simply because theyre too afraid that their power can be misused (although it already is, look at Ulfric). The Geybeards had the power to stop a lot of bloodshed (not just the Skyrim civil war, mind you) but they did not. Depending on your views, that can be just as bad as killing people yourself.

So while I personally like Parth, the philosophy he has taught the Greybeards (inadvertently) led to the deaths of people since Alduin's defeat. They could have at least tried to stopped many of the wars in Tamirel's history, but from what I know, they did not. People died because of Parth's violence in Alduin's Dragon Cult, but his peace with the Greybeards let a lot of people die (maybe even more that his time with the Dragon Cult).

I for one agree and think that the Greybeards are right for taking a neutral stance in the affairs of the world. They are not a political regime looking to dominate the world how they see fit, and are just fine with letting the world takes its course without some crazy old guys running down the mountain shouting the crap out of some guys just because they don't totally dig something. It also makes them look like they are above petty political affairs of most of Skyrim and can provide a different look on how everything goes. If the Greybeards where more gun-ho, they could cause much damage and strife in the process, so either way, [censored] gonna go down with or without their intervention. Its not like people will go "Welp, the Greybeards just told us to stop fighting. Lets all go home.", because places like Skyrim aren't going to put down their swords just because some dudes stride down a mountain asking really nicely. The whole reason they have the whole holier than thou vibe is because they don't take aggressive action due to the chance that the whole situation may get worse if a greybeard intervenes. Also, to say they don't do anything in regards to this (Albeit I didn't go with this option) is kinda funny. Along the way during the main quest (If you haven't overrun Whiterun for a certain side yet) you can choose to go to the Greybeards, who'll I think that is pretty significant (If not strangely awesome.)

It could be argued the opposite way as well in that their extremely neutral stance protected them through the eras so that they provide the assistance to the protagonist. If they were heavily involved in the political system from the start the chances that they would remain the same as they were at the start would be slim. Technically Paarthurnax's leadership kept the Greybeards around so that when Alduin returned there would be someone who knew what was going on. If they didn't then it would be the end of the world as you know it and everyone would be dead.

They basically are providing long term services to the world on a era based timescale over maintaining the peace on a day to day basis. They did provide advise to the leaders of the past and it seems like their advise was good or they wouldn't be so well respected all around.

Actually, not even Paarthanax himself can lay claim on inventing the philosophy the greybeards operate under. The person you really need to blame is Jurgen Windcaller.

In a world full of swords-and-sorcery, the wise men with nukes for voices refuse to talk.

We all saw what happened with Yokuda, when their Wise Men just had to try that one sword move*.




"Surahoon," he said, "We are the ansu, the greatest warriors that live in men. Our swords sent the Left-Handers into the oceans, whose empire was four times the size of the white king. When we fight, our swords can kill the laws of nature itself. Yokuda is as you see it because our hira-dirg swords can cut the atomos, the uncuttable, and we did. We are the ansu, and we tell you now that you cannot beat the Ansu-Gurleht. How do you think he came by that name? Who do you think was our finest student?" - http://www.imperial-library.info/content/lord-vivecs-sword-meeting-cyrus-restless

It would've been more compelling for the Blades to continue their tradition of killing dragons because they are dragons without the need for a flimsy excuse. "Why kill this dragon?" should seem like an absurd question to the minds of the successors of the Akaviri Dragonguard.

In the same breath Delphine tells you that the Blades put all their hopes in finding, protecting and aiding a Dragonborn - she tells you that in regards to Paarthurnax that you are "either with her or against her".

WOW.

"I'm sorry - We were totally all about you..but then we read this book that said we KEEL DRAGINS!"

To clarify, this position is ridiculous for numerous reasons:

First, the Blades are known for being the defenders of the Emperor (and by extension the Empire), when Esbern and Delphine were trained to be Blades it is that history/duty that were fed. Delphine underlines this position when she says laments about how with no Septim to protect the Blades had trouble finding a new identity and purpose. A purpose they apparently found in attempting to find a new Dragonborn.

Second, it is clear that the Blades do not defend the Emperor - they defend the Dragonborn..who happened to be Emperors for a long time. With this in mind, Esbern mentions that for generations the Emperor's would not allow them to kill Paarthumax. So the stronger, more organized, more secure Blades Faction were willing to be enthusiastic servants and martyrs for the Emperors who refused to allow them to kill Paarthumax - but the two man strong barely surviving mostly forgotten rag-tag band of remaining Blades (Who owe their future survival completely to the Dragonborn) are willing to forsake their aid to the Dragonborn they've been waiting for because he wont go kill Paarthumax HIMSELF.


The fact the Blades killed Dragons thousands of years ago is an utterly academic insight. These people born and breed to defend the empire, emperor or at least Dragonborn would have to see this as an extremely secondary obligation.

We've seen Blades before now..at their height..we know what they are like. We saw them lay their lives down for the Septims, we saw them stand with the Champion of Cyrodil and Martin on the eve of the Oblivion Crisis.

With everything in context, the Blades demanding that you kill Paarthumax for their cooperation makes about as much sense as if on the Eve of the Oblivion Crisis - the Blades saw Martin turn into a Dragon and joined forces with Mehrunes Dagon to defeat him.
Because. forget he is Akataosh and trying to save the world, HE IS A DRAGIN AND TEH BLADZ KEEL DRAGINS!

literally could not say it better myself. Bethesda dropped the ball on this one faction, plain and clear.

Right now, it seems as though Delphine demands everyone's respect and obedience and could honestly care less about what anyone does or says, unless they insult her in which she'll go ballistic on their butt. Hell, with her attitude, I'm sure she'd even have a [censored] fit with Alessia, Pelinal, Wulfharth, Morhaus, Reman, Zurin Arctus, and Tiber Septim all together in a room. Good job, you survived all these years. I'm out there, killing every single dragon that comes my way, usually alone, and being hounded by Thalmor agents, Dark Brotherhood assassins and hitmen from the Thieves Guild every so often. Hell, at this point (just before I talk to the Greybeards about learning a shout to defeat Alduin) I am very willing to help out the Thalmor by killing her and personally delivering her head to them on a silver platter, lined with the softest materials known to Nirn, and decorated with the finest gems. Her general lack of respect toward anyone and anything is REALLY off putting. In fact, her role seems to be being less of a Blade and more of a blood thirsty wench. At this point, she's making the most rude, crude and racist Stormcloak sympathizers look like saints.

As for Esbern, he comes off as being absent minded, and likely the kind of person who forgot what they ate for a meal immediately after eating it. However, he's someone who does seem to know what's going on, and isn't a total dike weed. I'm more willing to hear him out, instead of trying to ignore every word uttered and wishing for the most gruesome death be bestowed on him.

As for the Greybeards, it was Jurgen Windcaller who mandated pacifism with those who use the voice, for he saw it being misused as a weapon only for war. But as they mention, the Dovahkiin is free to do whatever (s)he wants to do with the voice, and have no qualms about it. Also, as Seeker pointed out, there have been points in time when great power was used, and it brought only the utter destruction of the land. Delphine is a short sighted [censored], who refuses to listen to anyone but herself. And even then, I'm not sure she even listens to herself.

I agree completely. When I talked to Esbern about the situation, he at least tried to put it politely and explain (Albeit his reasoning was weak) why you should go killl Paarthanax. As soon as Delphine opened her mouth, I basically said [censored] it. She put me off when she went psycho about me being buddies with the Greybeards, and now doing the whole "With us or against us" routine. I'd actually like to point out that I am basically a dragon in a human shell. Should the PC kill himself because, holy [censored], hes gotta dragon soul. Hes gonna torch the countryside.

For being a Blades agent who survived so long, and depended on knowing, she's incredibly ignorant about..well...everything. Here I am shouting like a madman, and her response about me being buddy buddies with the Greybeards is nothing but complete and utter contempt and ignorant drivel. Them making me a pacifist? No way in hell, especially with how often I shouted in front of her during the big fight against two dragons and an entire encampment of Foresworn. In fact, at this point, I couldn't call it ignorance. No, I'm sure she's purposely blocking it out of her mind, because princess here has to have her way.

"You think of me as just a dragon hunter Delphine? Well, maybe I am. But you know what else I am? I am a killer of my brothers. Fratricide lingers still on my breath. Can you smell it, Delphine? Can you? I do not think you have ever seen me for what I am, even though I learned it from you! You are the ignorant teacher who teaches by revealing to the student just how much you don't know. I am Dragonborn. Wo lost fron wah ney dov, ahrk fin reyliik do jul! Do not question when I stay my hand, when I could have stayed it to begin with! The Dragons I have killed were the sacrifices I hath made for this world, and the sacrifices I made were unto MYSELF! Now hold your tongue, my sister. Do not presume upon me because I share your form, for I HAVE THE BLOOD OF A DOVAH!

Nice post, Fiore1300.

Thanks.

:rock: :swear: :mohawk: :toughninja:
[censored] ya

Just have to jump on this bandwagon, and add my own [NUMINIT] YEAH!!!! :toughninja:


I'd love a mod with this line of dialogue that then removes the essential tag from Delphine. Just in case.





Esbern's reasoning was the hardest for me to dismiss out-of-hand. Having read the "A Song of Ice and Fire" books, I've always sympathized with the "cold but just" characters, one of whom basically says what Esbern says. That line about how doing something good doesn't necessarily make up for doing something unspeakably bad. However, the ramifications of that line of thought in reality would, in my imagined universe, completely remove most people's motivation for ever doing something "good" in the first place, and Paarthurnax (and his "tyranny of The Voice") are too important to lose in a world full of pissed off dragons who've suddenly lost their King.

If my Dragonborn could issue some kind of official Dragon Hunting Law, it would probably be thus: "Dragons who take up the Way of the Voice, who follow Kyne's chosen in seeking seclusion from the mortal world, and who never again harm men, are to be spared, regardless of their crimes during the life of Alduin."

Knowing that many dovah will then seek to hide their crimes under the banner of amnesty, the rule will continue: "Any dragon who is so much as seen terrorizing the smallest of farming villages has given up their right to exist, and is to be hunted down. The signs must be clear, and there can be no reasonable doubt, but err on the side of caution."


It wouldn't be a perfect system, and witches like Delphine will definitely do their best to exploit it, but it would be an important step in seeing peace.

That really should've been a dialogue option. Ha! :goodjob:

Even if the hero wasn't Dragonborn, you just don't go around telling heroes what they must or must not do. The NPCs in this game make far too many assumptions about the existence and/or nature of the player character's morality; and that Blade is the worst. Ah Delphine, how well do you know this Prisoner? If I could slay Paarthurnax, I could certainly slay you.

I really wish we had a couple more dialog options that that went beyond saying "WUT dOes tHat meAN?" Perhaps not super genius knows what the Thalmor are REALLY up to and gets the entire idea of metaphysics down, but I at least wanted to sound like a competent, self sufficient person.



Its probably because Esbern wasn't a complete dike to me that I actually liked him to some varying degree. Sure, he wasn't exactly all there, but the man made a decent case there. Sure, his uncompromising stance was jarring, but I didn't feel the impulse to bash his head in with a mace when talking to him.

Well put...

Thank you!

I just found the entire situation profoundly absurd. Given the present circumstances of the Dragonborn's relationship with the rusty Blades and the historical relationship the Blades had with the Emperors.

Yea, I never found the Blades very helpful anyway. When I needed to consult somebody I looked to the Greybeards or Paarth. Then again I never even really cared for Esbern during the initial quests either, he came across as generally aloof (the only times I'd actually go talk to him intentionally was when upon killing some dragon I'd get the random update that I should talk to him).

I didn't killed Paarthunax.. even if he was Alduin's ally once, without him, we couldn't destroy Alduin.

Blades are barbaric fools, i rather stay with the Greybeards and the way of the voice.

Esbern is wise, but Delphine is just a barbaric blade that wants to kill all Dragons..

This is a situation in which a Yes Man option would have been cool. You should've been able to choose between the Blades or the Greybeards or submitting the fate of the dragons and how you deal with Alduin to the determination of Tullius or Ulfric. Tying the civil war in closer to the main quest to where they were nearly seamless would've been cool.