I really disagree with their ultimatum to kill Paarthanax. I know the Blades have a legacy for being Dragon killers but I found it really strange that the Remaining-Blades would rather rid a very valuable ally even before you [!!!] . I also thought it was strange that despite being allied to a DRAGON-born they still wanted to get rid of Paarthanax who has had considerable influence on the Grey Beards and the Dovahkiin.

Barbaric fools. Ignore them and stay with the Greybeards.

It is presented pretty badly, though i'm not sure they're really in the wrong going by Paar(Ambition)Thur(Overlord)Nax(Cruelty)'s parting words.

Nor am I. However, the man has been sitting over a bunch of hermit monks teaching them on how he thinks the voice should be used. Actually, I see the guy winding up trying to force dragons to adopt the nonviolent approach in his own personal view of the Way of the Voice. At least, thats how I interpreted "His tyranny on the way of the voice"

I think that's correct. He wants to teach them peace when its in their very nature to crave battle

Is there a dov dictionary somewhere?

I can't bring myself to kill Paarthurnax, its literally the only thing I refuse to do, I can't even save-kill-reload :sadvaultboy: Heartless Blades - They say nothing when I summon Odahviing in Front of them. Hypocrisy :shakehead:

Yes, found http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_language

I wanted to headbutt Delphine after she did that abrupt heel turn and became an uncompromising biyatch. I was more disappointed with Esbern though. :sadvaultboy:

What were Paarthurnax's parting words? I forget.

Never killed paaarthanax either. I did however hack Delphine and Esbern to pieces after the main quest.

Pity they dont die

Hated them both...Stupid idiots Almost As bad as Ulfric!

And who's to say that he can control them? He has to meditate daily just to control the actual biological urge these Dragon's have for war and supremacy. I will never understand why people are so willing to forgive Paarthurnax, "oh he only killed all those people a long time ago so it's okay". He's a killer and - like all dragons - a potential timebomb waiting to happen. Long live the Blades.

EDIT: Exactly, sit over a bunch of hermits, remind me again what the Blades did before they faught to the death? Protect the Emperor and the Empire. I know which I'd sooner see returned to prominance.

Once again, Paarthurnax may have killed a lot of people in the past, but guess what, Alduin killed more. And was going to kill everything. Paarthurnax was the reason he was stopped. So saving all our asses absolves the genocide, simple as that. Everyone currently alive owes that to Paarthurnax.

Let me use the Enclave for a moment. Let's pretend that Autumn from FO3 did a heel-faced turn and helped Lone Wanderer. He asks for forgiveness as he fights against the very government he once swore to serve. We know what Autumn did, we know who he's serving, yet he decides to help out.

What would you say to that? Remember, we're looking at a hypothetical scenario with a different Autumn than the one from FO3. An Autumn who had seen the errors of his ways and is now rushing to make amends. He does everything he can to help Lone Wanderer, fights alongside Lone Wanderer, gives important information to the Brotherhood of Steel about how to take down the Enclave.

My point is: If a bad man wanted to turn good, to redeem himself, shouldn't we give him the chance? Keep an eye on him and let him prove that he really means it when he says, "I've changed."

And? That prevents him from returning to his evil ways - IIRC the reason why he must meditate in seclusion every single day - how exactly? He's served his purpose but it's a mans world and live-and-let-live has only brought morons like Ulfric and facsist governments like the Thalmor. The Empire isn't a 21st Century democracy, it exists in a world where literal legions of men do battle against another and countless thousands are lost to fighting with brutal weapons; thanks and all Paarthurnax but your too much of a risk. A mentality like that isn't too much to expect from a medieval world is it?

Read my post.

We're not saying that five minutes of contributions will make a mass murderer a saint (see Darth Vader for a glaring example of this). We're saying that if the former bad guy has made it clear that he wants to change, shouldn't we give him the chance?

I appreciate the Enclave metaphor but the point still l stands; second chances are all well and good until they blow up in peoples faces. Till bad people slip through the net too commit again, these people are bad people and henious acts we are talking about; they can redeem themselves in the eyes of us and the Gods but it doesn't mean that they can just go unpunished right?

Ultimately I just can't put the potential for Dragons bad behind, especially not with the human world in such a poor state. If Paarthurnax has to go to restore the Blades then I'll just bite my lip and do it because the Blades have a better potential in my eyes.

EDIT: When this "chance" potentially has hundreds or thousands of human lives on the line in another Dragon War I'd sooner be safe than sorry. What do Dragon's do all day anyway, they don't have cities or arts. They are sentient flying monsters. Who was it who said that "Speaking is as natural as fighting to a Dragon?" I just can't trust them.

Well one. Paarthurnax is ONE dragon. And there are no where near enough dragons for another Dragon War. So it can't possibly blow up in our faces as bad as you appearently believe.

I thought one of the reasons Paarthurnax was supposed to live is so he can teach all the other dragons how to suppress their natural urge to kill. Hence I am working on the more-than-likely hypothesis that - given Paarthurnax must devote all of his efforts to suppressing the violence - the other, weaker, younger and more wreckless Dragons don't go in for all of that.

He's a dragon and therefore a liability; self-admitted that he sometimes wishes he could go back to the old ways.

I suppose that's the real question: Where does redemption stop? Who is more deserving of redemption?

Some say that it's never too late to be redeemed. Others say that once you go down that dark road, you can't come back.

Perhaps my Enclave anology was wrong. Autumn isn't a flying monster who's very nature is to burn everything. If he redeemed himself, it's just another story of a bad guy gone good. While he'd still have to pay for what he's done, there's no worry that he'll flip out and burn the world with his voice. Still, would the Brotherhood even allow him to help? It wouldn't surprise me if they thought he had done too much damage and instead throw him in prison, maybe letting him out under guard if they reeeally needed him to do something.

Interesting debate...

I'd be of the former, redemption is good for inner peace and all but not everything can be fixed by time and good deeds. If he was capable once before, what's to prevent it happening again? I just can't let him live, regardless of what guilt he may feel, or actions he's done to redeem himself. Who's he to put a value on lives lost and say that he's a good man? I guess by that token you could say what right does anyone else have to judge him, but it's basic law right? Paarthurnax killed a lot of presumably innocent people and the ancient Nord's certainly felt that freeing themselves from the Dragon's was necessary. When you can live forever like Paarthurnax - or just for a really long time who knows - just saying it was all in the past doesn't cut any butter with me, and with the Nord's reveration of their ancestors I can't imagine it would do to them either.

But seriously though, what do Dragon's do on a day-to-day basis?



Indeed, Autumn is never far from any discussion I and the other lore-intensive Enclave fans have. I personally dislike him and his goal intensely, but - not liking Eden all that much either - see his reasoning for it (even if that reasoning ending up being more personal).

If the Greybeards, Gormlaith Golden-Hilt, Hakon One-Eye and Felldir the Old all found it within them to forgive Paarthurnax, then who am I to met out retribution?

The guy who is going to kill Alduin? The thing that all those guys failed to do properly?

So in other words, you think that everyone in the Confederacy should have died after the US civil war, and Germany should have been completely annihilated too.