Just a thought, but these three skills, if they're actually skills in skyrim, are pretty much forced on the pc. You'll always try to block in combat naturally and you'll also sell and buy a lot of stuff. Being that all skills start off the same and there's no class system, will everyone be forced to have these skills define their character?

Forced? Nooo... E.g if I were a pure mage why would I need block?

But your mage may become a master of mercantile being that you need to buy and sell stuff. Also, pretty much any other type of character will have to use block if they get caught in fighting situation. I think the system will be broken in the end as block, mercantile and athletics (if present in the game) will rise perhaps even more than the skills you want to primarily use

There is no *need* for merchantile or block or athletics in either morrowind oblivion or fallout for that matter. YOu can sell things and still get rich in the end of all 3 games without merchantile. A mage or a pure archer could also do without block. A warrior could do without athletics...

I don't see why the system should be "broken"

Maybe you don't understand. In previous es games, you chose major skills and sometimes minor skills. These skills had boosts over the others. You also leveled up by using these. In skyrim, every skill starts off at the same and every skill in the game can be considered a 'major' skill because if you use it, it will contribute to leveling up. With that said, my pure warrior may need to sell a lot of loot to have money, or run because walking is so slow. Suddenly, my mercantile and athletics is higher or just as high as combat skills I wanted to solely use. Same for block...my pc gets caught in situations where I just need to block to survive and now its leveling up just as quick as my other skills.

In previous games, both mercantile and athletics raises slowly. Block may go faster, but only if you use it much and if this is the case, you are the one defining your character this way. I mean, if you are a pure mage and you are blocking a lot, something is not right with how your handle combats.

you can easily go without block and mercantile, also thanks to fast travel athletics raises also very slow.

When you actually want to raise mercantile or athletics, see how long it takes you then. Also no mention has been made yet of whether trainers are still in the game, but if they are, and you absolutely must have one and two handed higher than block skill, pay for training on one, if it's there use it.

To make money I always had to sell lots of things. I'd be broke if I didn't. The only thing that helped was that mercantile was already much lower than my chosen skills. How would you actually play without buying and selling a lot of stuff? Also, athletics was a skill I felt forced to use. Inside oblivion gates, or just getting to certain places within cities,etc. Being that these skills start off the same you may even see them level up before you use the primary skills you want to use. Its easier to avoid using magick, lockpicking, sneaking and weapon types, but certain skills are almost unavoidable. What's the fun if you can't make money off the loot you just got in a bandit hideout? Just avoid selling stuff so merc doesn't increase?

i see the problem here. its pretty hard to avoid blocking once ur in a combat situation. especially since running backwards will be slow now. even if ur a mage if an ogre runs up on u to hit u and he's in ur face.... u cant just run backwards anymore. but u dont wanna take that hit. so wut if u happen to get into alot of fights. and ur block skills starts going up without u really....wanting it per say. im not worried tho cuz thats a skill of mine that i like to use. i plan on using a sword and shield. and a bow... and hopefully still be good at smithing too. smithing is my numero uno important skill.

They just might tie weapon blocking to weapon skills this time, leaving Block only to govern the shield. Athletics will really increase much this time only if you sprint, swim and jump around a lot. Mercentile increased only when you tried to get better prices in previous games, and since it's now probably merged into Speechcraft, you'll also need to talk a lot to get it high.

Well the general guess is athletics is out or combined with acrobatics, and mercantile is subsumed into speechcraft, so they may well rise more slowly if you avoid the more active elements of jumping and persuading, and if block is so important to keep lower, maybe role play a beserker who eschews a shield except as a last resort.

Athletics could probably raise very slow unless you use the sprint option frequently. The speed of Mercantile increase could be affected by how much you haggle over prices.

Exactly. For example, you want to play a pure mage. You start off the game, and find yourself running a bit because walking is horribly slow. You kill a few bandits in an early dungeon. Some of them get the jump on you and you're forced to start blocking between spells. You then want to sell that loot to have a dime in your pocket. You're now equal in athletics, mercantile, destruction/conjuration and even block. either that or you painfully force yourself to just walk, not sell stuff and take hits when an enemy closes in on you

" Mercentile increased only when you tried to get better prices in previous games, and since it's now probably merged into Speechcraft, you'll also need to talk a lot to get it high".



I never knew that, I thought mercantile increased simply by buying or selling.

To be optimistic just for the sake of it, I assume they have thought long and hard about this new leveling system, must be some half way serious maths behind it, and have addressed this issue. No point building a whole game around a potentially broken game mechanic, and even if not perfect, hopefully some serious playtesting will show it needs revision.

It did. In Oblivion, the cheat way to increase mercantile was to sell 200 arrows one at a time.

First off I think I understand what your issue is. You don't want to level your character excessively by doing things that you consider to be minor, but which are necessary for you to progress through the game(like sell loot, run around and block to avoid blows). Am I right?

Okay with that said.

1) Athletics is out, so no worries there for running around. (and yes I stand firm in the belief that its gone and not 'merged' with acrobatics)
2) Block is only one form of evasion along with shield spells, dodges, and simple sidesteps or parries, so if you don't want it to define you, it doesn't have to be your 'go to' style of defense, and even if you did use it seldomly, it wouldn't play that big of a role in levelling you up.
3) Mercantile is a bit different because we all use it to some degree. But you have to remember that it can only level up as fast as you can buy and sell gear/loot/potions/etc., which means that you either have to have the gold to do excessive amounts of shopping or you have to have large quantities of loot and gear to sell. Either way, you will have to have played quite a bit with your 'defining' skills to have met one of those two demands--so don't worry about it. (and yes I know that sounded confusing but it was hard to explain)
4) You have to remember that even if you start to level quickly because you're using skills out of neccesity rather than out of desire, there will come a point where that process will begin to slow, because those 'undesirable' skills will begin to get higher themselves and be harder to level up. So once again--I wouldn't worry about it too much.

I forgot about that--been awhile since I played.

THERE IS NO REASON NOT TO WANT SKILLS TO INCREASE. :facepalm:
Seriously, there is no penalty for increasing skills that you don't really care about. The skills represent what your character does and how good he/she has become at it. Block and athletics represent what you do naturally in combat and there is no reason not to use these skills. When trading it's natural to want to get the best price, thus mercantile/speechcraft is perfectly understandable. And if attributes and skills are improved by perks leveling these skills might actually help improve your other skills, the ones you care about.

At this point, we have no guarentee that these skills will even appear in the game, perhaps their functionality will be merged with other skills. But if they do appear, I could see this happening, yes, however, hopefully, Bethesda would have considered this when designing the current system, and would design these skills so they will only level quickly if you actually use them extensively. If not handled right, I could see the concerns explained in this thread becoming reality, since athletics and mercantiles are skills that most characters are unlikely to avoid using, blocking less so as not all characters will necessarily block a lot in combat. However, Bethesda may have already taken this into account and thought about how they can prevent such skills from overtaking other ones if you don't se them extensively.

Ah with all due respect, there is a reason--two good ones in fact that I can think of right now. These reasons may not be important to you, but they might be to him.

1) The faster you level up by increasing your non-combative skills, the faster the world levels up to match you. So when forced into combat, your combative skills are weak by comparison, leaving you out-matched.
2) For the sake of roleplaying a specific type of character with both strengths and weaknesses. Not everyone wants a character that has everything maxed out.

Indeed.

I would like a simple system where you can go into your skills-menu and check a box next to the xp bar or whatever, and when that box is ticked the skill will not level up or gain any xp. That would make roleplaying more immersive for some.

Yes but at the beginning of the game, you will probably use you preferred skills, weapon spell or bow, the most, before the chance to sell or persuade, so other skills are already counting less to leveling, and meaning you will have to put a lot of work into a skill to 'catch it up' to your highest skills if for example you fancy a career change. Unfortunately, if block is a skill you use all the time, then it is part of how you play, and will count more, makes sense, so is something you will have to put up with.