Wow no one did this before? That just seems natural to me

lolwut?

The mechanic shouldn't be exclusive by any means. If a bandit successfully blocks one of my blows, it shouldn't hurt him unless there was more force behind it than a moving elephant. Otherwise, it wasn't a block.

The difference is that Oblivion reduced damage by a set percentage of damage dealt, meaning that a level 1 Goblin would still deal damage past a successful block even at high character levels. A variable system using attributes and skills would add logical damage reduction.

A 50 pound daedric shield being hit by a 90 strength, 100 two-handed skill Nord with a Warhammer should certainly deal damage to you, though depending on your shield skill and your own strength (or Endurance, I'm not certain which is the better choice), it might be fairly minimal.

But I'm an advocate for higher damage across the board, so that may influence my opinions on design.

Edit- I might be interested in receiving your newsletter if they changed the system so that -missing- a block like the one I outlined above would take about half your life off, reduced somewhat depending on your armor factor. But the presumptive system in which you can take 50 hits before dying would seem to lend itself better to a variable damage system.

So, when I'm not actively attempting to block, my shield looses all collision data?

I'd sort of be annoyed for the reasons Spooky gave... but then again, I remember you can't directly control how you attack in Oblivion either... In this area, I feel PC may be holding back Gaming progression, as the consoles have started moving to using motion control... Contrary to what a lot of people claim about the "Gimmicky" nature of Wii/PS Move-style Motion Controls, Sword+Sorcery gameplay would be much better with motion control for determinging weapon and shield placement.

On the other hand, the 360 screwed up with Kinect by cutting out the controller entirely.

True, full blocking might not be a good idea if we're demigods of toughness like Oblivion. I'm assuming that's not the case in Skyrim. (Possibly irrationally, but still)

It would be interesting if it at least contributed to armor factor on the appropriate side and front even when not used to block.

Daggerfall had a form of directional attack, though it only was for a risk/reward damage system, so with some work, the PC could replicate a locational attack using standard controls.

Why do people put down kinect. You know that it eventually will allow you to scan object in the game...so instead of holdinh a controller you could eventually swing an object similar to.a sword. I see more potential in kinect

Unless Kinect comes with a bisected Dual-shock controller to allow input without needing to flail about or babble, it's impossible to adapt classic gameplay that we're used to to it. Yes, it would allow a better melee combat experience with the ability to control the direction and location of your swings and parries, but how would you quickly browse menus, or even get your character from point A to point B. The kinect has too much emphasis on overdramatic body movement.

Otherwise, it would be worth having more genres adopt the system.

My bet is that it'll work something like Deadly Reflex's blocking where more damage is blocked if you time it better. IE, if you time it right as your opponent starts swinging, it'll block more than if you just held down the block key.

the GI article said it was like this, but another foreign article said that it was like oblivion only you pressed both triggers and you blocked constantly, and then the inndividual triggers are used per hands

which is right?
I hope the GI >.<

I support spookyfx. That video he posted of the sword+shield fight was excellent.

Now from a gameplay standpoint, I'd like it if you could "passive block" light blows (think about how you could passive block arrows in Mount and Blade without "activating" the shield). No reason that just because the shield isn't up in your face that it can't stop attacks without a lot of weight behind them.

Well, since a sheild takes the place of a weapon, it's possible that you can just hold it up, but I would assume its timed.


I'm not sure how I like the idea of holding both triggers to block though, I think that it would be really easy to fail and end up attacking when you want to block.

I agree with that (and your views in general), although I would add that the principles of body movement and countering are pretty much universal, just that the techniques vary; determined by the cultural development in that part of the world.

This is wrong.

This is why.



Block button is separate from attack buttons.

If you sit there with your shield up you cant see jack, and people would just hit you somewhere your not defending since you cant see where they are attacking from. You need to lower it to see the next attack

This is somewhat true but as stated is a little too simplistic. There are proper ways to hold the shield to view your opponent's actions and still hold your defense up. The error laymen often make is thinking that one must block his LOS of the weapon/opponent to stop an attack. A shield (in RL) used properly "blocks" the LOS of the weapon's handle to the intended target. If the handle of the sword cannot "see" the target it wants to hit the sword cannot hit the target. This gets more complicate with weapons such as an Axe but the fundamentals are essentially the same. I am trying to condense my 30 years of RL sword and shield heavy weapons fighting knowledge into one paragraph, so please forgive me for not using a lot of qualifiers and listing all the counters to exceptions. However what I am trying to say is from RL experience with weapons that swing over 60 mph, and countering such attacks with a 10 pound shield, that shield is just not going to be moved up and down for "blocking" constantly the way a blade is used to block in when it is also moved for attacking. Moving the shield down out of the way by mistake or out of fatigue is when you die.

see this:

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1164452-blocking-with-the-shield-question/page__view__findpost__p__17122309

and this:

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1164452-blocking-with-the-shield-question/page__view__findpost__p__17122380

The SCA (society for creative anarchism) is world wide, we are even in the phone book, find a local chapter, ask to go to a practice and try out using a real shield. You do not have to join the organization just to do this a few times. You may find it fun as well as educational!

Over 30 years and the game companies still do not have this right. However, the science of Combat Geometry is a lost one.
Light weight super strong blades (Katanas) changed sword fighting (away from the use of Shields) .

Only in the last 30 years has it been seriously quantified again (by other organizations not just the SCA) using modern physics and mathematics.
So I guess I cannot blame the game DEV "too much" for getting it wrong all this time.

I am still sad, Oblivion block was so basic and stat oriented that it made it easy to tweak to be more realistic and fun. Recoil was the worst part, and I did find a way to get rid of that eventually. But now in Skyrim it seems like they are wanting it to be more player skill than PC stats for blocking. I hope I am wrong in that assupsion...I really do...

i am so glad you're weighing in on this Duke. i have my own misgiving's about how Beth will handle combat in Skyrim. my consolation was that "flaws" would be modded out, just as you did with OB.

I saw the video you posted about blocking etc.
But may i ask.how would that work against someone with a two handed weapon like a hammer or war axe?
Would blocking something like that still hurt,knock you back,or indeed drain your energy?
I imagine it would...but i'm no expert,far from it,but i would like to know from your experience

Edit: i think Samurai's used a club like weapon which was designed to cripple and break shields,forgot it's name,but they used them.

Wow. You're a safer. Having your shield up at all times! Nah... but it's better to have to time your blockings. It is very hard to hold a shield up for more than 5 seconds, try it your selves. So I think it will be a good decision to time you blocks. Thus, making combat harder and more enerving. And holding down the shiel button should trigger an attack.

There are as many ways to counter an attack as there are ways to attack. Do not be fooled by the games and movies that only show thrusting the shield into the path of an attack. This is where the FUN and depth of using a shield can be, this is where I hope to radically change the game industry when I am a skilled animator or level designer and can qualify to work for a professional DEV.

Specifically to your question however, the primary thing to do is evade the attack, do not be where the attack peaks. If that is not possible then you have a sm?rg?sbord of other methods including:

Counter Attacks
Limb Binding (very good to use against massive weapons such as the "Samurai's club which was designed to cripple and break shields" )
Static Blocking (may sacrifice the shield however, but was a very Viking thing to do...)
Interception Parry
Impedance Parry
Attack Parry
Various Parry Deflections
Physical interference
Visual interference

And even physiological tricks to prevent them from attacking in the first place. (put them on the defensive instead).

Thanks for your reply
The reason i asked that question,was to gain more knowledge,as you know what you are talking about.
It was by no means meant to imply that you didn't know or i knew better
I was just interested to know from your point of view,it's interesting to have someone with that knowledge on the forum.
I know there will be many technique's for countering,blocking such weapons as i mentioned.
But i meant,from your opinion,if such a weapon hit you,or continuously blocked it,what would happen?
I'm just interested,that is all
Oh,by the way, the samurai weapon i was refering to was called a "kanabo".
It basically like a baseball bat type weapon with spikes,some made of iron/wood or both.
It needed good strength and skill to use,because it was cumbersome,it could leave you exposed if you missed,and you had to know what to do in that situation.
It could cripple/break horses legs,break swords,and even crush armour.
Anyway,thanks for the reply

:confused:

um..no offense was taken nor intended. What did I say that made you think I was offended?

Did I say something that sounded like I was annoyed by your question?

Your question was a very good one. A 2h weapon made specially for smashing shields (the western version being the war-hammer or war-pick) will in many cases smash shields especially if you just hold the shield up to be hit constantly. But there is practically speaking no "Omni Melee Weapons" that trumps all other melee weapons.

All things being the same (skill of the opponents, physical abilities like strength and perception, and mental conditions such as motivation) a man with a sword and shield and a man with a 2 handed war hammer (all 3 made of like craftsmanship and materials) have a 50% chance each of wining the fight.

The hammer and other massive shield/armor smashing war weapons are only at the advantage in WAR were there are other men to support you (prevent the shield man from using their advantage of speed and agility using less massive weapons such as playing range, or coming in close.)

It does not require all that much movement to defect such a weapon however IF you are holding the shield UP in the proper position. Only a couple of inches of movement is needed and deflection is only ONE way to defend, you can place the EDGE of your shield against their their shoulder in thier backswing to prevent them from effectively using the shield smasher as well as many other shield techniques. As I said there are as many ways to "block" with a shield as there are ways to attack. I have spend decades working on ways to do this in PC games all on paper. I am not a great programmer because I spent my time learning to fight and in learning special effects rather than programing. So I am having to "reinvent myself" these days to get to the point I have the PC skills to be valuable to a game Dev.

This is why I LOVE Oblivion (and fear Skyrim somewhat) Oblivion was MADE to be modded. So people like myself with big ideas and small programing skills could do great things. I have made over 30 mods in the last few years. But only because Bethesda made Oblivion as it was and because of help from real programmers like the OBSE team.

A Skyrim version of your SCA combat mod is one im most looking forward to Duke, and will most likely be as cant-play-without as your OB one. after playing with your mod on, i couldnt bring myself to play Two Worlds 2 combat anymore.
if you ever get hired to do combat in games, be sure to let me know. unfortunately however, more people seem to prefer flashy "superhero" moves to the more realistic and practical combat ones.