SOmewhere on Game Informer, I remember reading that you will need to time your block. Thus, making it seems that you couldn't hide behind your sheld if you were getting hammered by an enemy. Also,keeping the block button down would make you do a block push.

Has anybody read elsewhere that this is the case?

I would prefer to hide behind the shield isntead of having to pull it up to defend at every strike.

It makes combat more difficult, and it kind of makes sense. Holding the shield up could be possible, but if they were to do that stamina should deplete over time. I like this system better, makes combat harder.

Hm, I don't know. I could go either way on this one, I'll see how it's implemented. The theory is sound, though.

I wonder how it works with projectiles. Holding your shield out against an arrow attack is viable, you don't generally stand ready and snap it up in place.

I also want to hear about Parry, as I won't be using a shield. Have to hold that torch somehow.

If you just hold a shield up people would stab around it. It's not a wall of invulnerability, you use it to deflect the blow - that requires timing. As such, your shielding needs to be timed.

I get the gist of why they are doing it, which is sound, somewhat. I prefer to fight like a spartan, with a shield wall going on. But i guess this will have to suffice.

I thought I read somewhere that holding the block button would trigger a shield bash attack.

Using a shield will probably make blocking easier in general, maybe with a larger timing window and/or more deflection.

This is one of the things I'm excited about with the new combat. What idiot is going to swing and intentionally hit your shield anyway as you sit there and hold it up? You wait for them to start their attack, then raise your shield to deflect it. That's how it works in real life.

Since I heard this would be in Skyrim I started doing it in Oblivion. Only blocking when enemy swords and maces went flying through the air, or when I heard the sound of an arrow being fired. (It's easier than you'd think to block an arrow this way). It adds another twist to combat, and it's actually a lot more fun this way, I think.

If you have the shield in one hand, the action button for that hand stays free (it's confirmed somewhere that you block by pressing both action buttons). So I think that holding the shield up will be done with that free action button. Fits perfectly to me :thumbsup:

You are probably basing your statement on traditional Asian marital arts training (I am assuming you to be a student/practitioner to give you respect and the benefit of a doubt). So I can see why you would believe that is how it is "in real life".

And it is true, that is how it works about 50% to 90% of combat time when you are blocking with the same weapon you are attacking with.

However for about 90% of the time one is in combat (using a shield) that is not how it is done in real life. Otherwise I guess I have been doing it wrong for over 30 years and still manage to gain our world wide organization's (SCA) top 1% ranking. I have been ranked as King twice and now hold the rank of Duke as well as Knight. (my credentials: http://wiki.caid-commons.org/index.php/Patrick_Levi_Darkwrath )


I am very sad about this and I do not know why. I should be happy that one of the best game companies on the planet is falling back once again, like every other game dev, on the Asian (game logic) template that a 10 pound one handed western European shield == 2h three pound katana blade. I should tell myself this means I still have huge opportunities in the game industry to make big changes once I am proficient enough in animation or other game making skills.

The shield if used properly will move only about %10 of the distance and speed that the attacking weapon will. In layman's terms, shield work is (in general) maintaining the shield in position (angle and location) relative to your opponent and you that denies an open path to the most likely targets. When your opponent goes for the less likely targets you as a shield man first take a step to close the path, then if that is not enough you turn, if that is not enough THEN you move your arm. Tricking your opponent (or getting them too tired or many other techniques) to move the shield out of its defense position is how you kill them.

This is an extremely simplistic explanation as there is an entire science to what I coined as "Combat Geometry". But with your background in marital arts I hope you will understand what I am saying.


see here for more info about combat with Shields: http://www.spookyfx.com/book/tromp.html


I am more depressed about this then I should be, but I think it is because from what I have read about this I fear I will not be able to mod this out of the game.

I need to remember that this is all speculations I guess, wait to see how the game really is, then go from there to see if I can tweak it to be more fun and realistic. Todd and his team seem to have the vision, thick skin and bravery other companies do not have to allow their game to be as "mod-able" as is practical.

I usually do something like this in Oblivion as it is. I find it has three major benefits: one, it reduces the odds an opponent will use a power attack to bypass your shield; two, increased mobility and speed, especially when reacting to power attacks; three, more opportunities to catch them off balance and get a few solid whacks in.

@spookyfx: Watching a few fights on youtube now, kinda see what you mean.

I am very impressed by you on two things, one that you could see what I am refering to by watching the you tubes fights. In 2d this is very difficult to see, that is why I did not throw up a youtube link as I was worried that the esoteric nature of what I am talking about would be missed in the "actions" of the fighters in these videos.

The other thing I am very impressed with is that you figured out some of my favorite tricks in oblivion combat. I crank up the damage done by attacks, the AI to block 90% of the time and the Shields to block 99% of the damage. Then at the right time drop my shield to trick my opponents into various compromising positions "at the right time".

Keeping the shield down all the time will do about the same thing (as you have cleverly discovered ) but it leaves you open to attacks yourself.


Anyway, as you brought up the idea of You tube I guess will offer this link. It is the best (example) I could find in a only a few minutes of searching

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqgQRFDtD2I

Thanks mate

Some of it is definitely hard for me, as a layman, to make out. Most of the ones I watched, I had no idea who was winning or who was a better fighter, because the actual combat occurred in short, intense little bursts. I think I saw one where one guy had a smaller shield and stayed open more, in order to bait his opponent I suppose, but again - I've never done it, so any anolysis I make is pure speculation.

That kind of tactical approach to fights is what I loved about Oblivion's combat, though - it's not like a Bioware game where you can pause, consider and carefully select your movements, you need to strategise right now to get the upper hand. So I think the new approach to blocking, while perhaps not quite realistic to European-style sword-and-board fighting, will at least promote a little more of that dynamism in Skyrim's combat, as opposed to a lot of players who simply blocked the whole time.

Yah it's confirmed. They did it that way to make combat much more dynamic. Look on the bright side: now we get to shield bash whenever we want :thumbsup:

All that is taken out of the Deadly reflex mod (timed blocks and shield bashing).

Timed blocking is a game contrivance that, to my mind, is a hold over from having a lack of animations. I don't think it so much is even an attempt to apply Asian martial arts as it is game developers seeking ways of adding arcade action (which I guess thanks to fighting games is derived from Asian styles). Kind of like their thinking is that by holding block the PC is not adjusting and so timed block is to 'simulate' that.

I wonder if this means blocking as a character skill is being removed in favor of timed blocking as a player skill. Is that known - is block still a character skill?

Well at least they took some ideas from spooky's combat archery mod.

Duke/Spooky - I know that there is much talk about a new game engine, but my bet is that the modding kit we get will still have many features still and be just the next step in their tweaking of the Gamebryo type engine they have been using all along. Just like the Geck was an extension of the CS.

I don't think it will be wholly totally new and that much will be the same. Could be wrong of course. The glitz of Skyrim will wear fast I think - especially once we get info like DirectX9, etc. I looked over the screenshots and after the first few times - I'm not that impressed. Sure much better than Oblivion, but not modded Oblivion.

@ spookyfx.com

Exactly what I mean! =) Your video were perfect.

It just seems logical to fight the way your video shows, and that is how I fought in Oblivion.

Now, what maybe the could have done to make the combat really cool was is that when you striked, you could have striked for head, either arms, either legs, and body. Then to block, you could hold the shield up and tweeking either up, left, right, down etc, you could absorb the full hit versus just part of it if you had your shield slightly to the right.

Yes, I would still want a shield push.

I think that would make it quite interesting and strategic way to fight...with of course some parry and power moves added in there for entertainment purposes.

So, pressing both action buttons (left hand and right hand) you block right? So, when holding a shield your other hand button is just not used? It's my understanding that in Skyrim on 360 for instance:
I have a sword in my right hand and a shield in my left. Pressing LT and RT will make me block. But if I hold LT and RT it does a shield bash? Sure that adds more difficulty to combat but that doesn't really add to the realism of it as you guys have pointed out. A large part of combat is faking your opponent out and causing them to open themselves up to a attack. In theory we will only be able to hold are shield up for X amount of seconds right?

Why not do it like this: LT and RT still make you block, but just using the action button for the hand your shield is on, for instance LT does a shield bash. Problem solved.

To be more or less realistic, blocking should act as the following:
Shield down: your stamina remain the same or regenerate depending on athletic skill
Shield up: consume few estamina or none depending on athletic
Receiving a hit: Stamina decrease depending on diference beetween attacker "ofenssive" result and defender "defensive" result, same for health even behind a shield taking a huge hit, your arm hurt and you have to keep balance. (Its not because your behind a shield that a truck can do you no harm)

Shield push/bash Nice idea, would lower your stamina a bit but can make your foe stagger back or even fall down.

If you want to put a factor for gaming the greater the shield is, the more SA (situation awareness)blind you are as in reality. If ennemy strike and he ain t on your los (line of sight) he got a bonus so you will probably loose more stamina and more life. So if you retardedly keep you shield out your like a turtle, do nothing and see nothing. It would be good for taking a potion but the ennemy could do the same (depending on his health and loot) and you would loose the fight anyway.

I really don t understand why this cant be done, just more dumbing down, easy way to go.

Yeah... no. Adding one feature but taking away another is not dumbing down. You can now control when you shield bash, but you can no longer perpetually hold up your shield forever. I don't see how that's dumbing anything down. :shrug:

Also, streamlining does not equal dumbed down. I forget who made this example but look at the companion wheel from New Vegas. That was a streamlined way of how to giving companions orders, yet it had more depth than Fallout 3's system.

Edit* typo :ninja:

I'm hoping they've ditched the silly system that forces your character to take damage, even when he successfully blocks. Better a Mount and Blade approach to blocking, where blocks cancel all attacking damage but tear up your shield, than taking damage no matter how good you are at blocking.

A block should be a save.

I agree to an extent; they should have a shield block a set amount of damage based on your attributes and block skill. If a Troll smashes you and you block, then you should take considerable damage even through the shield block, with the damage lessened depending on your skill at blocking or, for instance, Strength attribute.

And if they do locational damage it should be possible for your shield arm to get crippled if the hit is heavy enough.

And the difference between that and the Oblivion system you claim to agree svcks (besides factoring in Strength) is what exactly?

Exceptions can be added for extremely heavy hits (the troll you mentioned, for example) but those should be special cases, preferably with special animations such as watching your character get knocked around the room. I should not magically take damage through a 50 pound daedric shield from a common sword blow.

Fatigue damage is something else altogether, though.

Agree this should be simple:

Total ennemy attack factor - Total defender (you) factor = you receive stamina damage, above a lvl you also receive health damage that goes incresing with the diference.

@unfringed no special just a rule to be followed.

Now a question to your kind, why are you always trying to put "i win" buttons on everything ?