During the main quest of Oblivion the player character has to collect samples of godsblood, specifically and individually from a Divine and a Daedric Prince.

We know what two artifacts were required for the Player, but which ones did Mankar Camaron use? I can imagine Dagon would have willingly given him some of his own blood, or perhaps Camaron used another of the Artifacts besides the one the player used (I'll call it a game mechanic if anyone mentions the fact the player can still own all of them despite this hypothesis). What's really a good question is where would Camaron have gotten the blood of a Divine? What constitutes a Divine, anyway? Apparently it doesn't have to be an Aedra, because Talos was a mortal who only became a god AFTER death. Unless his blood also changed when his soul did, that was simply the blood of a mortal which Martin scraqed from the armor.


The armor was still in Sacre Tor when the Champion is asked to retrieve it, so apparently Camaron had not been there or used that blood. Where in the world did he get the blood of a Divine? Another artifact such as Auriel's Bow perhaps? Do we know how Aedric artifacts are even made? Perhaps their creation mirrors the process of Daedric Artifacts?


And finally, as a last part, as an interesting little scenario:

While they weren't shown bleeding per se in the game footage, both Dagon and Akatosh received several nasty mortal wounds during their brief duel. Realistically, both of these living breathing creatures would bleed when damaged to this extent. I would imagine their blood fell to the streets in copious amounts. This would mean, besides its sheer value in gold, a very powerful substance or substances were left behind from the failed Invasion - the blood of gods. Who knows what insane alchemical properties this blood might posses? It's been suggested before that perhaps all gods bleed Ebony, but that's just one theory. We know that's what Lorkhan bled but were we ever given true verification that Daedra and Divines have Ebony for blood? If not we could imagine that two separate but powerful substances were spilled that day, which were no doubt collected by the Legions for the Imperial Battlemages or some other elite organization to study and preserve. And perhaps to someday be used to open other portals, if the barriers should ever weaken again...

Would the Avatar of Akatosh even bleed?
I always assumed the daedric artifacts contained their 'essence' rather then, well their actual blood.
You pose an interesting question though, what DID Mankar Camaron use?

Mankar is Paradise.

I'm not sure what you mean, can you clarify?

Cameron made the Paradise, it's his own realm...

You take the "blood of - " way to literaly, like Raccoonism said... it's more a essence of... then real blood..

Anyway, Daedra don't bleed... Mayby their avatars do.. but I doubt it... and Akatosh's avatar is just a big.... ehm... thing, of energy...not a real dragon with organs and such... So he wouldn't bleed either...

If they would bleed, they would be able to die... and gods can't die...

Daedric Princes arent actually people, they are their own realms, so when Mankar created his paradise it became a part of him. Thats why when you kill him, the palace crumbles around you, its because his world died with him.
Though I dont know how he created he created his paradise, maybe he just needed the mysterium Xarxes to create the world. Maybe you need the gods blood when you want travel there?

And their avavtars wont bleed or die, because Dagon will still have his realm, so he will still be alive. No blood involved.
B)

EDIT: sorry, i was meant to write "arent people"

Yes I understand that. However Daedric Princes arn't people. Anyway, I am just at a lose as to where he got the "Blood of the Divins" to create his said paradise.

I meant to say the princes arnt people in my last, sorry.
I wonder if the crusader relics count as gods blood, boots OF kynareth etc., or is that just named after the divines?
Any thoughts?

The Amulet of kings... I guess... but that would say the paradise is very very young... But I think that's the only possibility..


The crusaders relic's are created by the divines..

Wouldn't the amulet have been destroyed in the process?

O yeah... xD.. probably... Mayby Cameron manipulated it in some way so it wouldn't be destroyed in the meanwhile.. also explaining why he was able to wear it....

Camoran (note: not Cameron, he's not a member of a Highland clan) is effectively his realm, just as Daedra Princes are. He also acts as the equivalent of a sigil stone for the place, which is why it collapses when he is killed.

When a Daedric Prince puts his essence into an artifact, does that lessen his/her/its power at all? The Aedra totally gave of themselves to create the Mundus - wouldn't all of Nirn be their essence? Their plane[t]s all mushed together...

But picking up a piece of dirt just isn't dramatic enough!

The method used by Mankar Camoran to create and access his Paradise probably doesn't quite match with how the player does it; you don't exactly end up trying a bunch of human sacrifice like you see in Dagon Shrine, after all. At least given what the in-game books document about other beings having their nature intrinsically altered (mostly Lorkan), his work was probably emphasizing the Wheel and Tower aspects of the Monomyth. As his nature afterwards was Daedra-like (albeit still mortal, but existing outside of Nirn and being his own Plane), he may well have had much more control over access to his Plane and control of how the Plane can be accessed. Take Azura's realm, which used to be more accessible before the Unlawful incidents at Hogithum Hall, but is now near-impossible to reach.

It's obvious that some pathways to Camoran's realm are fairly easy : the average dead Mythic Dawn member, after all, didn't have a daedric artifact. That pathway's not accessible to the player, nor would it be a good idea even if it were, but it means that Camoran can let people he wants into the realm without requiring quite the same values as the player uses. The four artifacts necessary for the player are probably a loophole into the realm, built because the Plane is still linked to Nirn and thus can be altered by those on Nirn where normal realms are immutable due to the nature of daedra.

@Gattsuru: logical and probably very true :goodjob:.

Yes. And Talos isn't a real Aedra. And two of the items accepted by Martin as Daedric blood were created by mortals. So the whole quest is crock until someone comes up with a compelling explanation for why it isn't.

If the gods, saints and martyrs in Tamriel are anything like the gods, saints and martyrs in our world, they would have left blood all over the place.

That's rather reliant on what story you pick, and what definition of Aedra (or for that matter, Divine/God, which isn't really the same thing) you're interested in. There's something odd about him, whether you select the popular history or the Arcturian Heresy version. Whether he ascended or whether he and Zurin Actus got smacked together in a ball with the Shor/Shezarr/Lorkhan not-quite-normal-Aedra-but-somewhere-in-that-category-entity, the nature of Nirn makes everything within it far more mutable than elsewhere (arguably, the only place truly mutable). The mer strapped a half-dozen elf attributes to Akatosh/Auriel/Alkosh simply by worship, as did the Khajiit, and a fanatical sect may have done a remarkable job of excising those parts, albeit at a rather high side-effect.

Probably more than two -- some of the other artifacts commonly attributed to certain daedra are implied to have at least partially mortal origin, especially those with more classical designs (like SpellBreaker's obviously dwemer inspiration), if not all of them (what with the Daedric resistance to non-cyclical change). I think after a Daedra begins passing them out as party favors, formed from nothingness, that a certain amount of essence goes with them.

That's more a matter of reconnecting a few wires. The soul can be seen as the connection between the body and the afterlife. Normally for mortals this is the dreamsleeve. For Daedra it's Oblivion. But since we're all just et'Ada it's possible for mortals to connect to Oblivion. Camoran talks about it a bit in terms of giving up mother (nirn) for the demense of Dagon. Other examples are Umaril and some of the unlisted (dead)endings of Battlespire.



He mantled one, that's close enough for me and I'll ignore the non-Daedric items as a mistake. It's only a minor one.

So some thoughts on why it works. Magic is mostly symbolic and symbolism goes by association. The ritual combines two opposites bodies, the blood, and two opposite souls, the energy. Much like the creation of Mundus actually. The result of that would be a world or a person, both decidedly grey and much like Mundus in the Dawn Era. In other words, Mankar Camoran and Paradise.

wait shouldn't their have been a backpath for the player to reach mankars realm? because if you kill the argonina are officaily in the mythic dawn cult and if you die should go to his realm so shouldn't it have been possible for the player character to use this to his advantage to get the amulet of kings back? though by useing this method he would have died along with mankars realm but the amulet would have returned to tamriel.

Yeah, but I bet Camoran or Dagon or whatever knew the player wasn't sincere; I mean, even if you kill the Argonian, you end up having to kill the Mythic Dawn members to escape, and you nab the Mysterium Xarxes.

Jesus, I've been reading through the Arcturian Heresy and looking up lore about Wulfharth and such and as per usual when it comes to delving into the lore of Elder Scrolls deities it's making my head spin. Was Wulfharth some sort of fragmentary remain of Lorkhan? A limited but mobile avatar of some sort? I was under the impression that Lorkhan was truly and completely dead as a result of the creation of Mundus, that at most pieces of him "survived" in a sort of endless living death, such that other beings can use his blood (ebony) as forging material or could tap into his Heart to become demigods (the Tribunal, Dagoth Ur).

But according to the Imperial Library and UESP, Tiber and Zurin ambushed and soultrapped Wulfharth, and then somehow the three of them merged into an Aedric entity... but Zurin Arctus was somehow left behind as a lich? My head hurts. :wacko:

He's an avatar yes; Lorkhan was cursed to walk Nirn "for many moons," after all. Makes sense he has avatars.

Which is kinda strange, given that Masser and Secunda are Lorkhan's decaying corpse. :mellow: