Boethiah & Stendarr ?

Post » Mon May 02, 2011 1:32 am

Gentleman no fighting in the war room, save the arguments about canonicity for Star Wars.

Tamriel is a world that is capable of holding scientific truth, historical truth and personal truth, truth conflicting or otherwise. Cannonicity is always the wrong argument as it is possible to provide a truth that encompasses all these 'truths' and creates a world in which each can be derived.

The stories of Ar'Kay the God and Thu'whacca the Yokudan God of souls are the prime example of this flexibility. When attempting to merge these two contradicting visions of the same god it becomes clear that the Breto-Nedic version is allegorical for finding a purpose in dead.

As such it's important to realize that it's people who believe the god of righteous rule allies the prince of plots. Like the story of Ar'Kay the God it should not be taken too literally. An alliance between Stendar and Boethia can be seen as the merger of ruthlessness and righteous rule. Which frankly said isn't even the most original idea, Machiavelli hammered out the archetype for this kind of behavior about 500 years ago.

---

Needless to say, this applies as much too the Deep Ones from Hack Dirt as it does to Ius, Animal God. :P
User avatar
Antonio Gigliotta
 
Posts: 3439
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:39 pm

Post » Sun May 01, 2011 9:45 pm

Needless to say, this applies as much too the Deep Ones from Hack Dirt as it does to Ius, Animal God. :P


Ok.

Then why can't I say that Lorkhan never really existed, but is rather a symbolic metaphor for gods' own mistakes? Or perhaps a metaphor for the natural transition from a universe of gods to a universe of mortals? You know what, I will say that. I'm not wrong I guess, beacuse in High Rock his very existence is ignored, so it very likely Lorkhan isn't real at all.
User avatar
REVLUTIN
 
Posts: 3498
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 pm

Post » Mon May 02, 2011 4:36 am

Ok.

Then why can't I say that Lorkhan never really existed, but is rather a symbolic metaphor for gods' own mistakes? Or perhaps a metaphor for the natural transition from a universe of gods to a universe of mortals? You know what, I will say that. I'm not wrong I guess, beacuse in High Rock his very existence is ignored, so it very likely Lorkhan isn't real at all.


If Lorkhan didn't/doesn't exist, then what did we remove enchantments from in Morrowind?
User avatar
Krista Belle Davis
 
Posts: 3405
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:00 am

Post » Mon May 02, 2011 12:44 am

If Lorkhan didn't/doesn't exist, then what did we remove enchantments from in Morrowind?

Mortazo's unbridled spite.
User avatar
Rachyroo
 
Posts: 3415
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:23 pm

Post » Sun May 01, 2011 1:49 pm

If Lorkhan didn't/doesn't exist, then what did we remove enchantments from in Morrowind?


A construct created from the minds of mortals. Belief is power, after all.
User avatar
REVLUTIN
 
Posts: 3498
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 pm

Post » Mon May 02, 2011 12:28 am

A construct created from the minds of mortals. Belief is power, after all.

So we've been mantling ourselves all this time?
User avatar
Rachell Katherine
 
Posts: 3380
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:21 pm

Post » Mon May 02, 2011 3:02 am

So we've been mantling ourselves all this time?


Yes, which is to say using the heart as a symbol of what "once was" the Tribunal returned to what they once were, gods. However, the power was ultimately lost, as it was a step backwards. After all, it was only after he lost that regressive power of godhood that Vehk reached the final subgradient, which is one step beyond mortality and two beyond godhood.
User avatar
Emily Jones
 
Posts: 3425
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 3:33 pm

Post » Sun May 01, 2011 4:47 pm

So we've been mantling ourselves all this time?

Sounds painful.
User avatar
Roberto Gaeta
 
Posts: 3451
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:23 am

Post » Sun May 01, 2011 2:04 pm

A construct created from the minds of mortals. Belief is power, after all.


No, duh. We're playing a fantasy game afterall.

If you want to reason Lorkhan out of High Rock, don't bother with allegory because that just works better on religious writing then anything else. Try what ever it is that causes the same Eight Aedra to be perceived differently in different places. you know, culture.
User avatar
Miss Hayley
 
Posts: 3414
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:31 am

Post » Sun May 01, 2011 2:11 pm

No, duh. We're playing a fantasy game afterall.

If you want to reason Lorkhan out of High Rock, don't bother with allegory because that just works better on religious writing then anything else. Try what ever it is that causes the same Eight Aedra to be perceived differently in different places. you know, culture.


Well yeah of course, who do you think created the metaphor?

The elves creates Lorkhan beacuse they didn't want to deal with their gods' own shortcomings and imperfect natures.

The men created Lorkhan beacuse they want their existence to have some higher purpose.

Lorkhan is a cultural construct. He was never real until mortals willed him to be.
User avatar
Matt Terry
 
Posts: 3453
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 10:58 am

Post » Sun May 01, 2011 8:46 pm

Once again, how do you explain the Heart? Which was, physically right before your eyes.

Mythopoeicaly, metaphorically and metaphysically your mumbo jumbo makes some sense, but there was still a giant stompy robot, a disappearance of entire race, another giant stompy robot, the Blight, and four Gods running around by the time Morrowind happens.
User avatar
Richus Dude
 
Posts: 3381
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:17 am

Post » Sun May 01, 2011 12:29 pm

The elves creates Lorkhan beacuse ...

The men created Lorkhan beacuse ...


Sorta falls short there. People with slightly different world views have this tendency to create radically different gods. That Lorkhan is the onset of Mundus in all cultures, can't be explained this way.

Which ofcourse implies Lorkhan was actually there, just as about everything else in the Monomyth.

But I believe we've been over this before.
User avatar
Kill Bill
 
Posts: 3355
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:22 am

Post » Mon May 02, 2011 2:18 am

The elves creates Lorkhan beacuse they didn't want to deal with their gods' own shortcomings and imperfect natures.

The men created Lorkhan beacuse they want their existence to have some higher purpose.

Lorkhan is a cultural construct. He was never real until mortals willed him to be.


Yeah, like Hyamentar said, the Heart basically explains his existence; even the existence of Akatosh suggests his existence, and if you deny Lorkhan in this way, you'd have to deny Akatosh the exact same way. The only thing mortals created about Lorkhan was his name and his motivations for doing so.

Lorkhan isn't like RKHET: he technically WAS needed before the creation of mortals. Though what you said IS true to an extent, but not necessarily true completely.
User avatar
Darren Chandler
 
Posts: 3361
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:03 am

Post » Mon May 02, 2011 12:12 am

Daggerfall should be considered non-canonical

So let's list the reasons Daggerfall is TES lore canon.
  • Orcs are a playable race, due to Gortworg weilding the Numidium
  • Mannimarco in Oblivion is a part of the King of Worms
  • Barenziah lives in Mournhold now with her son, because her step daughter kicked them out
  • Any of the in-games books about Dragon Breaks, which has helped us understand similar incidents in the history of Nirn
I could continue, but I honestly think that disregarding a complete game is stupid. Besides, Daggerfall was the first game to look at the world as part of an on-going series, this developing a true history and mythos.


~TK.R
User avatar
Kortniie Dumont
 
Posts: 3428
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:50 pm

Post » Mon May 02, 2011 2:29 am

Yeah, like Hyamentar said, the Heart basically explains his existence; even the existence of Akatosh suggests his existence, and if you deny Lorkhan in this way, you'd have to deny Akatosh the exact same way.


And like I said, mortal thought and an infinite supply of magic could conjure such and object. http://www.imperial-library.info/dfbooks/b055_lightdark.shtml

And who says that Akatosh is Lorkhan? MK in a forum post? OMG! That must mean that Akatosh and Lorkhan were physically the exact same being at all times and Akatosh had Triniamc tear his own heart out! You must have to deny Akatosh if you deny Lorkhan even though there is no finite proof of that being true!

Here's the deal:

Gods become mortals. They either screw up in the walkabout or it is just a natural shift.

Gods have kids. Mer and Men are born.

Mer and Men fight, Men need a moral booster to fight the war. The create the flase image of a being named "Shor" that leads them and is leading them to a glorius existance.

The Mer catch wind of this "Shor". The come to the conclusion that ti was he that tricked their ancestors and made them mortal. They begin to despise him.

Yada Yada, Dark and Light mortal belief shabang, Lorkhan is born.

And that's still keeping most of the post-Morrowind lore intact. You want something more revolutionary?

Dark and Light fight, their interplay creates Nirn.

Mortals evolve on Nirn. The eventually split into two faction.

The Merrish faction deludes themselves into to thinking they were once gods. They conjure a pantheon using the Dark/Light battle as fuel.

The Mannish faction is less nihilistic and believe mortals have purpose. They decided they need a leader...

and the rest continues as the previous scenario did.
User avatar
Travis
 
Posts: 3456
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:57 am

Post » Mon May 02, 2011 4:29 am

So let's list the reasons Daggerfall is TES lore canon.
  • Orcs are a playable race, due to Gortworg weilding the Numidium
  • Mannimarco in Oblivion is a part of the King of Worms
  • Barenziah lives in Mournhold now with her son, because her step daughter kicked them out
  • Any of the in-games books about Dragon Breaks, which has helped us understand similar incidents in the history of Nirn
I could continue, but I honestly think that disregarding a complete game is stupid. Besides, Daggerfall was the first game to look at the world as part of an on-going series, this developing a true history and mythos.
~TK.R


I said "in most aspects" not altogether. When was the last time you played the game? I'm playing it right now, and the texts, and general atmosphere is completely different. Morrowind was exotic sure, but oddly enough Morrowind and Oblivion both kind of seem related, whereas in Daggerfall there are remarks and general attitudes which just don't fit in (and I don't mean the anti-imperialism, that's actually ok).

The thing is Daggerfall is from 1996 and most devs who did Oblivion (and even Morrowind) were completely different people. Also the sheer amount of stuff in Daggerfall, and general low quality of some of it makes me think that they simply generated a lot of stuff and simply put it together as it went.

The books on the other hand are very well done and most of them are of course canonical.
User avatar
Nicole M
 
Posts: 3501
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2006 6:31 am

Post » Sun May 01, 2011 5:11 pm

It's the growth and maturity of the series, if you think about it.

ARENA - crawling

DAGGERFALL - walking, teething

MORROWIND - running, playing, eating solid food, etc.

OBLIVION - Full maturity, went off to college and became a "normal" advlt (hence the vanilla flavor)
User avatar
Soku Nyorah
 
Posts: 3413
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:25 pm

Post » Sun May 01, 2011 9:12 pm

It's the growth and maturity of the series, if you think about it.

ARENA - crawling

DAGGERFALL - walking, teething

MORROWIND - running, playing, eating solid food, etc.

OBLIVION - Full maturity, went off to college and became a "normal" advlt (hence the vanilla flavor)

If Oblivion is a full advlt, then the infant must have been teething on lead paint.
User avatar
Matthew Barrows
 
Posts: 3388
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:24 pm

Post » Mon May 02, 2011 3:31 am

If Oblivion is a full advlt, then the infant must have been teething on lead paint.


Lol, why do people hate so hard on Oblivion? I didn't get to complete it, so I don't really understand people's major grievance about it. Was the lore REALLY that bad?
User avatar
Eddie Howe
 
Posts: 3448
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:06 am

Post » Sun May 01, 2011 2:49 pm

Lol, why do people hate so hard on Oblivion? I didn't get to complete it, so I don't really understand people's major grievance about it. Was the lore REALLY that bad?

Most of the books were taken from Morrowind. I do, however, believe that people hate on it way too much.
User avatar
Hannah Whitlock
 
Posts: 3485
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:21 am

Post » Sun May 01, 2011 8:02 pm

Lol, why do people hate so hard on Oblivion? I didn't get to complete it, so I don't really understand people's major grievance about it. Was the lore REALLY that bad?

Well I love Oblivion but still it doesn't have the same soul Morrowind had.
And the places and guilds feel way too empty and unimportant for the Imperial Province.
User avatar
Robert Garcia
 
Posts: 3323
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:26 pm

Post » Sun May 01, 2011 9:50 pm

Lol, why do people hate so hard on Oblivion? I didn't get to complete it, so I don't really understand people's major grievance about it. Was the lore REALLY that bad?

A grown-up somewhat lacking in IQ seems an apt description for an M-rated game with the complexity of Oblivion.
User avatar
OnlyDumazzapplyhere
 
Posts: 3445
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:43 am

Post » Sun May 01, 2011 11:52 pm

The worst part of Oblivion (in my mind, other wise I love the game) is that it has a severe case of consolitis.

~TK.R
User avatar
Alkira rose Nankivell
 
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:56 pm

Post » Sun May 01, 2011 9:27 pm

A grown-up somewhat lacking in IQ seems an apt description for an M-rated game with the complexity of Oblivion.


In its defense, I think we can all agree that the "M" rating was undeserving. So in reality, tis a "T" game, which makes its simplicity a little more justifiable. I mean, it is a game marketed to fourteen year-olds.
User avatar
Ash
 
Posts: 3392
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:59 am

Post » Sun May 01, 2011 6:12 pm

I mean, it is a game marketed to fourteen year-olds.


Cigarettes are also marketed to fourteen year olds. <_<

~TK.R
User avatar
Cat
 
Posts: 3451
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:10 am

PreviousNext

Return to The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion