Sheogorath, check.

Psijic storms, check.

(I'm cheating.)

That... Would be one big helluva dragon... When looking up the sky you actually look into the jaws of the Dragon covering the entire sky, rushing down to eat the world. Maybe it is so big that it can eat Nirn in one big crunch...
How can such a powerful god possibly be stopped by mere mortals?

The Dovakhiin is like a Sith Lord. Size doesn't matter.

FINALLY! I've publicly theorized since I first became a Lore-nerd that Hunding was a shezzarine, and thus those with his soul are also Shezzarines.

By the way, if Aka is a dragon, and Shor is somtimes Aka, is Shor sometimes a dragon? Because then some Dragonborn could also be Shezzarines, and it does take Shor to beat Alduin; the PC in Skyrim might be a Shezzarine.

Oh, and on the topic of who these guys are, why do you assume it's MK or Kurt? THere are around 100 devs, and im sure some of the new-ish ones have gotten into the Lore.

I'd love to see posts by current devs. It would be amazing if Bethesda employees have started posting in the lore forum again.

I'm just a pessimist, and Mike seems to be the only guy who still posts.

Assuming the tale is true, there are several possible things to glean from this.

1. There are red dragons that serve man (the Empire). This probably relates to the dragon that you can call to for aid in the game.

2. Red dragons are shapeshifters that can turn into men. Call me crazy, but that just might indicate that it's a power that the PC might be able to obtain.

3. Theory: in order to defeat Alduin at the end of the game, you just might turn into a dragon and fight him on his own terms like Martin did in Oblivion.

^ hence the pictures of dragons fighting an not being able to ride a dragon "in the way you're thinking"?

as awesome as it'd be, it's not likely.

This isn't Mike or Kurt. I think it's Bruce.

Yes, Love shores up the black sea. Union with our Aurbis bodies in Talos.

Arkay is the Enemy within. The corpse-evangelist, proselytizing to the gods of mortalkind and synthesizing us in the Crystal-like-Law Dominion of his father.

Nords can resist the "freezing over" in the World-Eating. When Talos climbs Hrothgar, mankind steps in all quarters of seven-thousand worlds. He ascends to the fifth and gorges the void. The gods are made new in our hearts, when Talos touches the seven-thousand steps.

At least, this is my understanding.


I don't know the developers on a first name basis; who is Bruce?

http://www.bethblog.com/index.php/2007/09/06/inside-the-vault-bruce-nesmith/. He did http://imperial-library.info/node/2234.

Bruce Nesmith, I'd assume. He's been involved with the lore before. I think he's the Game Director this time around, too? [nope, the Design Director]

That would certainly be fitting. I scoffed at the "Daedra are unknowable and mysterious and interesting" angle in that interview. Well yeah, now they are.

Welcome to TES, ya demons.

I don't think this confirms that - it just says that, in this one situation, they play a similar role. Mind you, I don't necessarily think you're wrong about the HoonDing, I just don't think this is a piece of evidence that supports that.

I don't get that at all from the quote - only that the HoonDing defeated a dragon. At best it supports that Cyrus mantled the HoonDing, but even then he could be talking about some other dragon.

has anyone been cited as having killed a dragon who we know ISN'T a Shezzarine?

That's circular logic. If you're wrong, we have some counter-examples. If you're right, we have no counter-examples.

Depends on the dragon. Red and Black dragons were wiped out on Akavir.

Shezarr is not raga. Brothers in a different struggle, yes. It isn't that the HoonDing is Shezarr. The cultures impact identity.

Going out on a limb here... the first two "gods" we know of are Anu and Padomay. What if they created the first world (kalpa), and each subsequent generation had more? This kalpa has 8 divines, and the next will have 16 or 17 (or 12) depending on questions on who counts as a Daedra and who gets to come along and whatnot. Oblivion would then be populated by various spirits, some old and some new, and a few mortals may ascend as well and BAM we have even more Aedra for the next Kalpa! Follow me?

Also, since when was Dagon connected with Magnus? I haven't been around the Lore forums as much lately, did I miss something?

I like to imagine it has more to do with the "offspring" of Anu and Padomay... otherwise, the Altmer are going to have a [NUMINIT]-ton of universes to destroy in their climb back up the Divine Escalator (which, as everybody knows, is permanently jammed in the "Down" direction, moving at "Holy Butt That's Fast" speed).

So Akatosh(/Alduin/Auriel/Tall Papa/Big Daddy Dragon) is the first spirit to have formed (that we know to have survived), and makes it his job to eat all of the kalpas, for one reason or another (maybe Divine Tuesday is "kalpa night", who knows). Perhaps there have been other kalpa-eaters, but we only know of BDD. I'm pretty sure, once BDD (or, linear time/action-response) has set himself up, other spirits find it both easier to survive, and that they no longer can do everything(/nothing) at once. From THAT, I personally believe, is where kalpas and worldmaking and Padomaic awesomeness can really start to shine. Spirits being tricked/persuaded into giving of themselves, only to be devoured/replaced, for the cycle to repeat itself. We don't know if the "new gods" are copies of the old ones (which is, it would seem, implied by the whole Anticipation reference), or how that works.


Although the Peryite thing throws a massive wrench in my thoughts. Is he the new Alduin, too? Or just an Akatosh? Does that mean he becomes part of Alduin (or even just a new point of view), or are we to find out that they, somewhere down the line, became completely separate individuals, completely against most of what I thought I've read, and the Omnipotential lesson on Aedric thought processes found in these letters.

I'm uh... just gonna go wait in a corner until proweler, Lady Nerevar, or MW show up and explain it in a way that makes sense.

Mehrunes Dagon was created (or transformed from the Leaper) in the bowels of Lyg, from the pieces/students/children of Magus:

...for they created Mehrunes the Razor in secret, in the very bowels of Lyg, the domain of the Upstart who vanishes.


There will be plenty of time to unravel the Peryite Connection, and they know about as much as you or I. It's my experience you can't wait for the answer, and the blind shouldn't lead the blind.

So if that's what happens to them. What happens to the people already walking Nirn? Are they just reborn like normal via the Dreamsleeve?

I'm watching Braveheart, during the Bruce's betrayal. The King was unmasked on the wrong side. Then I lapsed into TES, and I remembered how Herkel's retelling of the story of the fall of Sarthal froze the host and King Ysgramor. This is why it is polite to interrupt the storytelling when you are cold. And I propose, as another has, Alduin is the iron mask imposed on King Ysgramor, bent and twisted by the Crystal-like-Law of his sovereign mirror-brother. He dangled in mockery and devoured his children.

One will betray the other... Dovahkiin may offer his heart to shore the Hunger, yet this is the banner of a larger uprising, when King Ysgramor is set free of the Law.

Just some thoughts.

A True fan I say is me,
I can't doubt the symbols I see.
I've one more thing for me to say, it's we
can bet that Herkel smells a bit Ork-y.

Random thoughts:

"Caecilly is no longer safe from the tempest of Alduin; we were before, hidden away in the skyvaults of the deadlands in the back of the Dagon's mind - a pocket of stasis in a void of chaos, a new Aldmeris waiting to bloom. Numidius would have had his own, Camoran did but did it wrong."

Caecilly could have rebirthed a new world - a piece of the world stashed away by the Leaper Demon King. Is Numidius referring to Numidium? Numidius' own what?


"But now we're here and the world-eater will find us, soon even, for we're in the north"

Alduin attacks from the North. Does this mean he has to pass through Atmora to get to Tamriel?


"Am I so early as that? Are the Nords at peace?"

TMK has some sort of out-of-time perspective, and can see the Nord civil war of ~4E200. He's surprised to return to 4E17 where the civil war hasn't started yet.

“the world-eater will find us, soon even, for we're in the north” (letter from CG to TMK)
“He always eats Nords first…” (Fight One)
“Also, the Treasure Wood should enter into this.” (Post by Kama Fyr) This might be a reference to Atmora (Alt Mora/Elder Wood) which lies north of Skyrim. Alduin eats from North to South. What is the significance of Atmora falling to the Men (led by Lorkhan) in the Dawn era?

“Numidius would have had his own” (letter from CG to TMK) Assuming this is a reference to Numidium CG seems to be suggesting that the Dwemer intention was to become a Daedric Prince and therefore an Aedra/Divine in the following Kalpa.


Aedra/Daedra - et’Ada/Ehlnofey:
“Where went the other four ehlnofey? Meredia, Peryite, Trinimac and... who? They'll be divines again no doubt, next time” CG is calling (at least some of) the Daedric Princes Ehlnofey.
“the Velothi spoke too soon in calling them their ancestors.” CG also implies that the three ‘anticipations’ of the Tribunal (Boethia, Mephala, Azura) are also Ehlnofey. Though the Altmeri creation myth calls them “tainted et'Ada”

Definitions of Ehlnofey and et’Ada from the Altmeri Monomyth:
“So they [the Aedra] created the Mundus, where their own aspects might live, and became the et'Ada.”
“Others, like Y'ffre, transformed themselves into the Ehlnofey, the Earthbones”
Definition of Ehlnofey from the Annotated Annuad: “The Ehlnofey are the ancestors of Mer and Men”
I interpret this as the Ehlnofey are descended from / created by the et’Ada as they ‘died’.

The Daedra have been defined as those that refused to take part in creation, and they don’t appear in the accounts of the Dawn wars (not even as mirrors). Are these early daedra the Lesser Daedra (Mazken, Dremora, scamps, atronachs etc) and the Daedric Princes are Ehlnofey who came into existence after the creation of Mundus and subsequently ascended to Princes?

Boethia changes Trinimac (an ehlnofey) into a Daedric Prince (a Divine/Aedra in waiting). This is the lesson of Boethia to the Velothi: The Altmer/Trinimac way of statis and regret is false, follow the three ‘good’ Daedra and we can show you how to achieve a ascendance [because that is what we have done].

Et’Ada/Aedra create/beget Ehlnofey some of which become Princes who then become et’Ada/Aedra who then create the next generation of Ehlnofey. Or is it a process of alternating Aedra/Daedra?


Other thoughts:

Peryite/Auriel - Time is a fundamental prerequisite for everything else to exist. Does this mean that Peryite (who doesn’t seem to control time) will ‘mantle’ Auriel? Is Peryite’s Draconic appearance part of his ‘walking like’ Auriel?

Magnus (and the Magna Ge) realises/believes that creation is a trap and escapes it, the Daedra chose to take no part in it, the Altmer regret being part of it. So if being bound in creation is something that some would rather avoid then does this mean that the Princes are themselves trapped on the cosmic conveyor belt? Is that why Alduin curses the Leaper Demon King to become a Daedric Prince?

If Magnus is the Leaper Demon King that Alduin cursed to be Mehrunes Dagon what was his motivation in trying to repeatedly stop the Kalpa turning and (ultimately) destroying Alduin? Was Dagon’s assault on Mundus (the Oblivion Crisis) a means to destroy the elements he hid of previous Kalpas so that he could return to leaping and avoid becoming an Earth bone?

If the Et Ada were already at the highest plane of existence (Gods) why would Lorkhan trick/persuade them into creating Mundus if it would only reduce them to lesser forms? If a god dies by becoming an earth bone do the gods themselves ascend to a higher plane (for want of a better term) than they could have achieved as Et Ada? Is this Amaranth?