On Boethiah's Summoning Day : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:43 am

Is Peryite’s Draconic appearance part of his ‘walking like’ Auriel?

To this I would say 'yes' without a doubt. We know the princes can change their appearance, and the fact Peryite is, to my knowledge, always depicted as a dragon means this is a conscious and calculated decision by him/her/it.

Great post all around Zardak.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:48 pm

*snip

I wish there were some expression more meaningful than "thank you" that I could use to respond to this. I'm grateful that you wrote that in the way you wrote it. Lots of things clicked in my mind and are beginning to make sense. Good grief but this is hard to wrap your mind around. Thanks for posting this.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:41 pm

So if that's what happens to them. What happens to the people already walking Nirn? Are they just reborn like normal via the Dreamsleeve?

The Tower touches all the mantles of Heaven, brother-noviates, and by its apex one can be as he will. More: be as he was and yet changed for all else on that path for those that walk after. This is the third key of Nu-mantia and the secret of how mortals become makers, and makers back to mortals. The Bones of the Wheel need their flesh, and that is mankind's heirloom.

- Book Three of the Commentaries

The mortals of a previous Nirn achieve the Psijic Endeavor (be as one will, at the apex of the Tower), and they become makers of the new world, whose stars' progeny become mortals. In creation, each of the eight fallen stars fragment into eighths. These are the Eight time Eight Exarchs, ancestors of mortal kind worshiped as gods, who are themselves the seed of mortals. Mortals become makers, and makers back to mortals.

The basis for the teachings of the Prophet Veloth, founder of present day Morrowind and father of Dunmeri culture. Veloth describes the Psijic Endeavor as a process of glorious apotheosis, where time itself is bent inward and outward into 'a shape that is always new'. Those who can attain this state, called chim, experience an ineffable sense of the godhead, and escape the strictures of the world-egg.

It should be noted that, while Veloth is given credit for establishing the anti-laws that govern the Endeavor, this process has its antecedents in the teachings of the Black Hands Mephala, Boethiah, Azura, Trinimac, and, of course, Lorkhan, through that lord's association with PSJJJJ.

- Psijic Endeavor

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:54 am

where time itself is bent inward and outward into 'a shape that is always new'. Those who can attain this state, called chim, experience an ineffable sense of the godhead, and escape the strictures of the world-egg.

Does that explain "Chimere Graegyn"?

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:44 am

Does that explain "Chimere Graegyn"?

It explains the state of Chim and creation... Chimere is a tower warden, or of the Castellans of Direnni, anyway. I don't know.

About my second to last post, I'm thinking Darth Vader, the Emperor's archetypal dragon, works as a parallel for Alduin, too. Realize, these are all archetypes, draqed in personae, and some of these are more suited like TES personae than others. I can't know if Alduin is close to either character, until I've read his story.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:35 pm

So if that's what happens to them. What happens to the people already walking Nirn? Are they just reborn like normal via the Dreamsleeve?

I don't know, when the Kalpa ends it all starts a new. Unless you happen to know how to side step. (Yoku myth).

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:07 pm

I don't know, when the Kalpa ends it all starts a new. Unless you happen to know how to side step. (Yoku myth).

Speaking of what happens to mortals, I'm curious what somebody like Chimere would become if Dagon had saved (or saves) Caecilly for the next kalpa. A lesser aedra or daedra? Or is he something completely out of place like a Hist would be to this world. Maybe that's what Hist are, lifeforms left over from a piece of saved kalpa (maybe that saved by whatever Clavicus Vile used to be).

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:49 pm

9 Rain's Hand, 4E 14
The Imperial City

I have arrived at last in the heart of the empire, such as it is. The statue of Akatosh stands in harsh relief to the things which I have learned the past months, though White-Gold towers as proudly as ever. A merish device taken by man, I wonder if we even know of it's true potential or what it's gleaming pillars support. If the Thalmor have their way they will reclaim their lost citadels; in entering the Thaumagnosiam I shall try and garner support for Balfiera as well as Caecilly.

I have enclosed the reply I received from Idhdean in regards to my previous letter; though it is not glad news I relay it nonetheless. I go to meet the council tomorrow, by the time you receive this I shall have already passed the gauntlet. Your words of encouragement do little to settle the mind, quite the contrary; the only question remaining is who stands in this world to tell the secret of their schematics?

Sincerely,
TMK

Attached:

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:53 pm

Lord of Vindasel? Isn't that an Ayleid ruin?

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:23 am

41 Stendarr's Star
3rd Passing

To my friend Tal Marog Ker,

Your last correspondence was disheartening but I have faith yet - the patterns of the cosmos cannot be ignored. The stars speak for their own truth.

There are those who still keep account of old pathways. Schematics are never fully lost, self-sustainment ensures survival even in those who plot the end of the world. The picture is not so black as it is already painted by the Thalmor [and Dark Brotherhood, who view only one angle of that which they worship as god]. Creation is separation, it is as solemn as death and perhaps this is why we hardly discern the difference. The et'ada will learn this difference again, either by rote or through the enlightenment of Talos, which is romance: the maiden, the dragon, and the warrior [and the bard, who sings their song].

Keep my blessing, there is nothing more to say. If you emerge from the gauntlet I hope to see you. The drums of war will beat again, perhaps this time we will prevail; not by my aged hand, but by our progeny's, for whom I write (and my son, wherever he is). If my curse remains I serve simply as witness, and herald.

Yours,
Chimere Graegyn
Isle of Caecilly
High Rock

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:35 pm

Lord of Vindasel? Isn't that an Ayleid ruin?

And an agent for the Thalmor one might wonder, but not too loudly of course.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:53 pm

And an agent for the Thalmor one might wonder, but not too loudly of course.

IT has housed Umbra before, and thus is tainted by the power of Vile

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:31 pm

My best guess at Thaumagnosiam based on greek roots is "place where miracles are unknown".

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:18 am

Also, "Ruptga was so big that he was able to place the stars in the sky so that weaker spirits might find their way easier."
"Ordering of the lowest order" vs guiding and "keeping track of" the weaker/lesser spirits. I think it's at least a potential connection, plus it says that Peryite used to be an ehlnofey (if I'm reading that right).

On that note it's also relevant that in Oblivion Peryite's quest is to find the souls of his followers and return them to their proper place (in similar fashion to Ruptga). He then bids you farewell with the words "Take this, with my blessing. May it bring you order."

“Where went the other four ehlnofey? Meredia, Peryite, Trinimac and... who? They'll be divines again no doubt, next time” CG is calling (at least some of) the Daedric Princes Ehlnofey.
“the Velothi spoke too soon in calling them their ancestors.” CG also implies that the three ‘anticipations’ of the Tribunal (Boethia, Mephala, Azura) are also Ehlnofey. Though the Altmeri creation myth calls them “tainted et'Ada”

If Magnus is the Leaper Demon King that Alduin cursed to be Mehrunes Dagon what was his motivation in trying to repeatedly stop the Kalpa turning and (ultimately) destroying Alduin? Was Dagon’s assault on Mundus (the Oblivion Crisis) a means to destroy the elements he hid of previous Kalpas so that he could return to leaping and avoid becoming an Earth bone?

Chimere is certainly calling those Daedra Princes he lists as Ehlnofey. I don't think he's calling the Anticipations ehlnofey now, but saying that they will become them. He says "Meredia, Peryite, Trinimac and... who? They'll be divines again no doubt, next time; the Velothi spoke too soon in calling them their ancestors." "Divines again" asserts those three as previously divines, however after the semicolon he seems to shift to speaking about Daedra in general (since those three daedra weren't the ones the Velothi called their ancestors). He then goes on to talk about the traidic gods, who like others have said, in this particular instance seems to be the Tribunal. He talks about them "usurping before their time" and says that unless they come "too soon" they may never come at all. This suggests that the Tribunal are the later manifestations of their Anticipations in the next kalpa, but they came back to this kalpa because if they didn't they might never exist due to Talos putting a stop to the cycle. It's no wonder Vivec and the Emperor never got along too well.

But what's that make Dagoth Ur?

-------------

That's a good point about Dagon. Chimere doesn't seem to think so, but it's doubtful he can fully grasp what's happening.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:09 pm

[snip]

If the Et Ada were already at the highest plane of existence (Gods) why would Lorkhan trick/persuade them into creating Mundus if it would only reduce them to lesser forms? If a god dies by becoming an earth bone do the gods themselves ascend to a higher plane (for want of a better term) than they could have achieved as Et Ada? Is this Amaranth?

From Sithis:

"Sithis is the start of the house. Before him was nothing, but the foolish Altmer have names for and revere this nothing. That is because they are lazy slaves. Indeed, from the Sermons, 'stasis asks merely for itself, which is nothing.' "

Pre-mundus reality was a hollow, infinite imperfection. Infinite, because immortal and immaterial; imperfect, because it shifted, moved towards finitude out of its own discontents. Once Mundus was created, Auri-El and his followers could not bear this limitation and attempted to escape, though they were perhaps intially seduced by its possibilities (as the Daedra are seduced by Mundus, though they chose to keep it at arm's length). Lorkhan and his followers embraced possibility- infinite space, instead of infinite time. It is not a question of being higher or lower, but of change versus stasis.

As others have said, thanks for your post. TES lore is so chim-like in its forging and reforging of connections that it is very difficult to keep track of all the relevant information- your list was helpful.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:10 pm

[snip]

But what's that make Dagoth Ur?

The backwards anticipation of the Doom Drum?

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:55 pm

So Akatosh(/Alduin/Auriel/Tall Papa/Big Daddy Dragon)

I think Tal Papa = Anuiel, not Auriel. He operates at a higher level. Once the Kalpa-Cycle starts, he looks down at his child and says, "sorry, can't help you. You've fallen too far." Also, he didn't get trapped like the other gods. Remember, there's the Godhead, then Anu / Pad, then Anuiel / Sithis, then Time-Dragon / Space God.

Random thoughts:

"Caecilly is no longer safe from the tempest of Alduin; we were before, hidden away in the skyvaults of the deadlands in the back of the Dagon's mind - a pocket of stasis in a void of chaos, a new Aldmeris waiting to bloom. Numidius would have had his own, Camoran did but did it wrong."

Caecilly could have rebirthed a new world - a piece of the world stashed away by the Leaper Demon King. Is Numidius referring to Numidium? Numidius' own what?

Just some quick Latin grammar. Numidium is either a genderless noun, or the object of a sentence. Numidius could be a second declension noun that's the subject of the sentence, or a fourth declension noun in the singular nominative (subject), vocative (form of adress), or genitive case (kinda like the possesive), or a plural noun in the nominative case. Jesus is a fourth declension noun, just for reference.

Generally speaking, I'd assume that Numidius is an active sixy version of the Numidium. Perhaps Numidius is what the Dwemer were trying to make, but instead they just ended up making the Numidium.

"But now we're here and the world-eater will find us, soon even, for we're in the north"

Alduin attacks from the North. Does this mean he has to pass through Atmora to get to Tamriel?

Maybe he already did? The end of the Merethic Era was clearly very weird. Perhaps it marked the partial end of a Kalpa, as Alduin ate a continent?

He then goes on to talk about the traidic gods, who like others have said, in this particular instance seems to be the Tribunal. He talks about them "usurping before their time" and says that unless they come "too soon" they may never come at all. This suggests that the Tribunal are the later manifestations of their Anticipations in the next kalpa, but they came back to this kalpa because if they didn't they might never exist due to Talos putting a stop to the cycle. It's no wonder Vivec and the Emperor never got along too well.

But what's that make Dagoth Ur?

This is a really excellent question that I hope gets some proper answering. At first blush, I'd say that he was just a normal dude who got mixed up in some bad time-travel mojo, but perhaps not. Does anyone care to load up a saved game and travel back to Red Mountain to have a chat with everyone's favorite carcinogenic villain? Its possible that his dialog might have some valuable hints.

“the world-eater will find us, soon even, for we're in the north” (letter from CG to TMK)
“He always eats Nords first…” (Fight One)
“Also, the Treasure Wood should enter into this.” (Post by Kama Fyr) This might be a reference to Atmora (Alt Mora/Elder Wood) which lies north of Skyrim. Alduin eats from North to South. What is the significance of Atmora falling to the Men (led by Lorkhan) in the Dawn era?

Perhaps it was a defensive move? Try to fortify your opponents most likely angle of attack?
I'm not so sure that the Treasure Wood is At/Altmora. Everything from cities to gods are named _____ Wood. It's possible that this might be an entirely new area to consider.

“Numidius would have had his own” (letter from CG to TMK) Assuming this is a reference to Numidium CG seems to be suggesting that the Dwemer intention was to become a Daedric Prince and therefore an Aedra/Divine in the following Kalpa.

Aedra/Daedra - et’Ada/Ehlnofey:
“Where went the other four ehlnofey? Meredia, Peryite, Trinimac and... who? They'll be divines again no doubt, next time” CG is calling (at least some of) the Daedric Princes Ehlnofey.
“the Velothi spoke too soon in calling them their ancestors.” CG also implies that the three ‘anticipations’ of the Tribunal (Boethia, Mephala, Azura) are also Ehlnofey. Though the Altmeri creation myth calls them “tainted et'Ada”

Definitions of Ehlnofey and et’Ada from the Altmeri Monomyth:
“So they [the Aedra] created the Mundus, where their own aspects might live, and became the et'Ada.”
“Others, like Y'ffre, transformed themselves into the Ehlnofey, the Earthbones”
Definition of Ehlnofey from the Annotated Annuad: “The Ehlnofey are the ancestors of Mer and Men”
I interpret this as the Ehlnofey are descended from / created by the et’Ada as they ‘died’.

I tend to think it's more that the Ehlnofey are created from the et'Ada. Y'ffre transformed himself into Ehlnofey. He didn't transform some random stuff into Ehlnofey

The Daedra have been defined as those that refused to take part in creation, and they don’t appear in the accounts of the Dawn wars (not even as mirrors). Are these early daedra the Lesser Daedra (Mazken, Dremora, scamps, atronachs etc) and the Daedric Princes are Ehlnofey who came into existence after the creation of Mundus and subsequently ascended to Princes?

I don't think that could be the case, given what we know about Magnus / Dagon. Some of the Princes of Oblivion have been there for a while

Boethia changes Trinimac (an ehlnofey) into a Daedric Prince (a Divine/Aedra in waiting). This is the lesson of Boethia to the Velothi: The Altmer/Trinimac way of statis and regret is false, follow the three ‘good’ Daedra and we can show you how to achieve a ascendance [because that is what we have done].

That's... very interesting. I don't know what to think about it. The problem that immediately jumps out at me is this: the Dunmer don't seem to place much emphasis on Trinimac / Malacath. If he was such a huge demonstration, I think he'd've been mentioned more often by the temple. I'm now thinking that maybe Boethiah just exposed Trinimac as a Daedra (he ascended and became a god only after convention was over). This exposure was kinda like telling a kid's bible-thumping parent's that the kid is gay, and that's what caused Trinimac to become a pariah god. I'm probably wrong about this

Et’Ada/Aedra create/beget Ehlnofey some of which become Princes who then become et’Ada/Aedra who then create the next generation of Ehlnofey. Or is it a process of alternating Aedra/Daedra?

Other thoughts:

Peryite/Auriel - Time is a fundamental prerequisite for everything else to exist. Does this mean that Peryite (who doesn’t seem to control time) will ‘mantle’ Auriel? Is Peryite’s Draconic appearance part of his ‘walking like’ Auriel?

Time is a fundamental principle, but does it have to be? As we go back in myth, things make less and less sense to us, because things used to be very weird. Maybe under Peryite, everything would be slave to alphabetization instead of cause and effect.

Magnus (and the Magna Ge) realises/believes that creation is a trap and escapes it, the Daedra chose to take no part in it, the Altmer regret being part of it. So if being bound in creation is something that some would rather avoid then does this mean that the Princes are themselves trapped on the cosmic conveyor belt? Is that why Alduin curses the Leaper Demon King to become a Daedric Prince?

If Magnus is the Leaper Demon King that Alduin cursed to be Mehrunes Dagon what was his motivation in trying to repeatedly stop the Kalpa turning and (ultimately) destroying Alduin? Was Dagon’s assault on Mundus (the Oblivion Crisis) a means to destroy the elements he hid of previous Kalpas so that he could return to leaping and avoid becoming an Earth bone?

If the Et Ada were already at the highest plane of existence (Gods) why would Lorkhan trick/persuade them into creating Mundus if it would only reduce them to lesser forms? If a god dies by becoming an earth bone do the gods themselves ascend to a higher plane (for want of a better term) than they could have achieved as Et Ada? Is this Amaranth?

Only the Yokudans try to explain how Lorkhan tricked everyone into creating the Mundus. They say that the Mundus was advertised as an easier version of the walkabout.

First off: wow. This is just an amazing post. A very good, text-based anolysis. My comments are in bold italics because I didn't feel like typing up all those quotes and /quotes

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:59 pm

I am in love with this thread ... honestly.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:58 pm

Just some quick Latin grammar. Numidium is either a genderless noun, or the object of a sentence. Numidius could be a second declension noun that's the subject of the sentence, or a fourth declension noun in the singular nominative (subject), vocative (form of adress), or genitive case (kinda like the possesive), or a plural noun in the nominative case. Jesus is a fourth declension noun, just for reference.

Generally speaking, I'd assume that Numidius is an active sixy version of the Numidium. Perhaps Numidius is what the Dwemer were trying to make, but instead they just ended up making the Numidium.

Kicking Latin grammar in the crotch for a moment (in that I know very little about it), I still have to say I like this theory. Numidius was the goal, Numidium the failed(?) state that resulted. Those who tried to become Numidius are forever stuck trapped in Numidium... almost like a state of being, as opposed to an entirely new being.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:46 am

I wonder when/where/if Graegyn's son will turn up.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:53 am

I wonder when/where/if Graegyn's son will turn up.

I've been wondering the very same. It might be a simple quirk of Chimere's character -- or a red herring, even -- but to my mind, his son's been mentioned too often [for him] to be insignificant.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:47 pm

"I tend to think it's more that the Ehlnofey are created from the et'Ada. Y'ffre transformed himself into Ehlnofey. He didn't transform some random stuff into Ehlnofey" MW
I agree, I was alluding to the Man/Mer Schism: created by gods / descended from gods.

More theories:
"With their triadic gods one could never say. Anticipations indeed, but one never anticipates your ensuing immanence to usurp you before its time."
“The triadic gods wars against Talos, and would have him removed, for he sets the stars in stone which could spell their doom. They come before they are anticipated, for unless they do they may never come at all; Alduin is their antecessor, but only if Hjalti fails. Talos holds back the divines of the next world. This is why he became a divine of this one - divine yet unanticipated, thus his uniqueness.”

Talos sets the stars in stone because he has mantled Shor. Shor son of Shor implies that the death of Shor is a key moment in the Kalpa/Creation/Dawn War cycle. Perhaps Time without Space becomes finite. Because of Talos Shor (in a sense) lives before he has been reborn / returned (or at a time when he should be dead). Talos is unanticipated, an upstart, out of cycle.

The Triunes mantled the Divine destinies of the ‘Anticipations’ not the Princes themselves. If the Kalpa doesn't turn then those destinies cannot occur. Lorkhan's heart links to at least the next Kalpa perhaps them all (because he's outside of time?) and is what enabled Almsivi (via Dwemer tools) to ascend. Maybe the Land God forms we've seen are akin to the Mannimarco / God of Worms division.

Though the Tribunal want Talos removed they are not opposed to the kalpa cycle, they still need Shor's son to restart the next one. The Thalmor want to end it entirely: "Remove Man not just from the world, but from the Pattern of Possibility, so that the very idea of them can be forgotten and thereby never again repeated." Presumably because just as destroying Talos worship removes Talos destroying Man removes Shor.

"I don't think that could be the case, given what we know about Magnus / Dagon. Some of the Princes of Oblivion have been there for a while" MW
I didn't explain that very well, that's not quite what I meant.

"Last time there were twelve worlds, in the next there will be sixteen. Or is it seventeen now? [because of Jyggalgag?] Caecilly may still be one of them [Dagon's Plane], a bit of hoarded dirt, if he reclaims it, if he can reclaim it - the crystal chapel has stopped pulsing. Where went the other four ehlnofey? Meredia, Peryite, Trinimac and... who? They'll be divines again no doubt, next time; the Velothi spoke too soon in calling them their ancestors."

If the current Princes are to become the next Kalpa's Worlds of Creation then some of the 12 worlds that formed this Kalpa must have been the current Kalpa's Aedra. There aren't 12 Aedra though. Did "Meredia, Peryite, Trinimac and... who?" not become Aedra/et'Ada? Did they remain ehlnofey somehow?

The missing four:
Magnus/Mehrunes present at creation (so was a plan-et) but not a Divine - leaping to avoid being bound in creation?
Meredia - one of the Magna Ge?
Perryite - ??
Trinimac... bit of an odd theory:
In Shor son of Shor Trinimac is on a par with all the other proto-Aedra. At the end of the Dawn he should have ascended with the others. Did Boethia mantle him at point blank range? Boethiah spoke with Trinimac's voice (walked like him...?). What was left was so weak it could only be a Prince again.

The other thing that occurs to me about Shor son of Shor is that only Shor and Ald are 'sons of'. The Time and Space god(s) are constants but the others are not which could be why the next Divine pantheon don't correlate with the current one. Will Peryite become both halves of Lorkhan/Auriel?

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:49 pm

He then goes on to talk about the traidic gods, who like others have said, in this particular instance seems to be the Tribunal. He talks about them "usurping before their time" and says that unless they come "too soon" they may never come at all.

This true for all poets, they arrive before their time.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:53 pm

I've been wondering the very same. It might be a simple quirk of Chimere's character -- or a red herring, even -- but to my mind, his son's been mentioned too often [for him] to be insignificant.

Chimere misses his dead son.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:31 am

The et'ada will learn this difference again, either by rote or through the enlightenment of Talos, which is romance: the maiden, the dragon, and the warrior [and the bard, who sings their song].

I think this is the first explanation of "love" we've yet seen. The key here seems to be strife, the continual struggle for betterment. The maiden is a maiden, and thus, has not been... achieved, or perhaps is unachievable. I'm curious what exactly the bard is supposed to be.

More theories:
"With their triadic gods one could never say. Anticipations indeed, but one never anticipates your ensuing immanence to usurp you before its time."
“The triadic gods wars against Talos, and would have him removed, for he sets the stars in stone which could spell their doom. They come before they are anticipated, for unless they do they may never come at all; Alduin is their antecessor, but only if Hjalti fails. Talos holds back the divines of the next world. This is why he became a divine of this one - divine yet unanticipated, thus his uniqueness.”

Talos sets the stars in stone because he has mantled Shor. Shor son of Shor implies that the death of Shor is a key moment in the Kalpa/Creation/Dawn War cycle. Perhaps Time without Space becomes finite. Because of Talos Shor (in a sense) lives before he has been reborn / returned (or at a time when he should be dead). Talos is unanticipated, an upstart, out of cycle.

The Triunes mantled the Divine destinies of the ‘Anticipations’ not the Princes themselves. If the Kalpa doesn't turn then those destinies cannot occur. Lorkhan's heart links to at least the next Kalpa perhaps them all (because he's outside of time?) and is what enabled Almsivi (via Dwemer tools) to ascend. Maybe the Land God forms we've seen are akin to the Mannimarco / God of Worms division.

Though the Tribunal want Talos removed they are not opposed to the kalpa cycle, they still need Shor's son to restart the next one. The Thalmor want to end it entirely: "Remove Man not just from the world, but from the Pattern of Possibility, so that the very idea of them can be forgotten and thereby never again repeated." Presumably because just as destroying Talos worship removes Talos destroying Man removes Shor.

Woah. I really think you've pulled back the curtain on this one.

"I don't think that could be the case, given what we know about Magnus / Dagon. Some of the Princes of Oblivion have been there for a while" MW
I didn't explain that very well, that's not quite what I meant.

"Last time there were twelve worlds, in the next there will be sixteen. Or is it seventeen now? [because of Jyggalgag?] Caecilly may still be one of them [Dagon's Plane], a bit of hoarded dirt, if he reclaims it, if he can reclaim it - the crystal chapel has stopped pulsing. Where went the other four ehlnofey? Meredia, Peryite, Trinimac and... who? They'll be divines again no doubt, next time; the Velothi spoke too soon in calling them their ancestors."

If the current Princes are to become the next Kalpa's Worlds of Creation then some of the 12 worlds that formed this Kalpa must have been the current Kalpa's Aedra. There aren't 12 Aedra though. Did "Meredia, Peryite, Trinimac and... who?" not become Aedra/et'Ada? Did they remain ehlnofey somehow?

The missing four:
Magnus/Mehrunes present at creation (so was a plan-et) but not a Divine - leaping to avoid being bound in creation?
Meredia - one of the Magna Ge?
Perryite - ??
Trinimac... bit of an odd theory:
In Shor son of Shor Trinimac is on a par with all the other proto-Aedra. At the end of the Dawn he should have ascended with the others. Did Boethia mantle him at point blank range? Boethiah spoke with Trinimac's voice (walked like him...?). What was left was so weak it could only be a Prince again.

The other thing that occurs to me about Shor son of Shor is that only Shor and Ald are 'sons of'. The Time and Space god(s) are constants but the others are not which could be why the next Divine pantheon don't correlate with the current one. Will Peryite become both halves of Lorkhan/Auriel?

This really is a puzzle.

So, first, there's the spirits that definitely were there, and contributed to convention:

Lorkhan
Akatosh
Arkay
Dibella
Julianos
Kynareth
Mara
Stendarr
Zenithar

Then there's Magnus, who was there but then backed out.

Ban Daar, Xarxes, Phynaster, Syrabane, and the Worm God are mortals who ascended to become small celestial bodies. Perhaps their status as celestial bodies (like the Aedra) indicates that they screwed up and became dead gods, instead of living gods. They were kinda stillborn, maybe? Jone & Jode are just how mortal minds understand Lorkhan's corpse.

Nirni may or may not be a separate entity, depending on who you ask.

Azura - Probably at least one Kalpa old, and holds a special place in the cosmos. She clearly helped shape the Mundus at the dawn time, but didn't die (think Khajiit), and, also, according to the words of the clanmother, she has a special ability to bypass the barriers between Nirn and Oblivion.

Boethiah - also likely an old spirit.

Clavicus Vile - We don't know that much about him, with regards to this stuff.

Hermaeus Mora - He's a huge mystery I want to unravel. He has some connection to time (predicting the future) and tried to trick men into being elves at the Dawn. His most famous daedric artifact (the Oghma Infinatum) is also very interesting: Xarxes's wife was named Oghma. I get the sneaking suspicion that he was very important in a previous cycle, playing either the Auriel or Magnus role. That Mephala is called his sibling makes me thing they were both created in the same cycle.

Hircine - An editor at the USEP wiki thinks he is a particularly young. I can buy it - the citation fits with the theory, but its far from proven.

Jyggalag - Has been discussed to death, but his place in the cycle of Kalpas is very curious, his ties with Sheo put him in an odd situation.

Dagon - Likely is the same being as Magnus

Mephala - "When Akatosh forms, Time begins, and it becomes easier for some spirits to realize themselves as beings with a past and a future. The strongest of the recognizable spirits crystallize: Mephala" - the monomyth. Everything about her sphere makes me think she played the Lorkhan role to Hermaeus's Auriel in a past Kalpa

Meredia - Likely a leaper-demon / magna-ge somehow transformed into a Prince of Oblivion.

Molag Bal - I don't really know where he might fit in in the Kalpa cycle

Namiria - "ancient darkness" makes me think she's more than a Kalpa old

Nocturnal - called the Ur-Daedra. The Empire recommends giving her respect in your evening prayers. Clearly massively powerful, and likely massively ancient.

Sanguine - No idea how old he is

Vaermina - "shares a special mageographic connection with the Mundus, since mortal sleepers often slip into her realm without any help at all" - very interesting. She may actually be a facet of the Mundus, created at the start of the cycle ?

Sheogorath - some say that he was created when Shor's heart was torn out. However, he himself denies this, and claims to be older. Trust a god of madness, and he's more than a Kalpa old. Believe the Altmer, and he's a newbie.

Peryite and Malacath are supposed to be ascended mortals, according to this new lore.

Honestly, I don't know what to make of this. I spent way more time writing this than I expected to.