I must confess that I'm continually confused by this thread. Immensely interested, but confused. Each cycle, some (but not all?) of the Aedra, Daedra, and who-knows-what-else essentially play musical chairs as to who gets to play what role in the next Kalpa?

From Shor, Son of Shor:


Nords (or men as a whole) appear to have been present in multiple Kalpas [Aldudaga], and in this particular one at leas they beleive they were created by Kyne when she breathed upon High Hrothgar. Perhaps this is similar to the Redguard Walkabout, with her bringing her (or Shor's) "Tribe" (men) from the last Kalpa to the present one?

This seems like a reference to the Reclaiming Sancre Tor mod. I know it couldn't be, but I'll alert the crew none-the-less...

Love means exactly what it means in our world. Talos is the personification of love. And love is the only force deeper than the Hunger.

I believe he's referring to the Anuad archetypes. The bard is the witness.

Seriously? I really hope that isn't the case. That makes the loveletter waaaaay lamer.

What do you want love to be in TES then?

Some weird Vivecism. It'd also be really lame if Muatra was a spear made out of milk, or if landfall referred to a ship's crew disembarking.

I've http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/855475-when-dead-gods-dream/ before regarding Ur. At the very least I think the main thing that changes here is a possible interpretation of "dream-sleeved inversion", which possibly gets an added connotation of a backwards flow of time (explaining exactly why he is experiencing the dreamsleeve reverse-styled).

At the most the symbolism of Lorkhan is littered all over Dagoth Ur. If Lorkhan has new look in the next world I don't think there's any more likely candidate (that we know of). If not Lorkhan then Magnus, with Nerevar filling the role of missing god.

I'd slightly change the wording of that first sentence, to "The Triunes are the Divine destinies of the Anticipations."

And what of Alma and Seht?

There is a small chance he could have been referring to Trinimac as separate from Malacath (since some lore post-Oblivion suggests them being two different individuals). The context doesn't seem to suggest this but it still a consideration.

LOVE is very weird. (Weird is relative.)

Quite possibly my favorite (at least in my top three) moment in TES addresses this issue nicely:

"When Nerevar returned, he saw the frozen comet above his lord's city. He asked whether or not Vivec wanted it removed.

'I would have done so myself if I wanted, silly Hortator. I shall keep it there with its last intention intact, so that if the love of the people of this city for me ever disappear, so shall the power that holds back their destruction.'

Nerevar said, 'Love is under your will only.'

Vivec smiled and told the Hortator that he had become a Minister of Truth." - Sermon 33

One of the more interesting things about TES is how 'love' (especially in 'MK moments') has a very strong, 'greater good' connotation, with sacrifices that are voluntary (and non-voluntary). Vehk even says that only in the long-run (even by the time standards of the Fifth Era) will his reign be seen as demonstrating the 'highest love.'


On an unrelated note, if this thread is being written by Bruce Nesmith or such, I am loving how much the writing MK has done over the past year has tied-in, and usefully helped set up the basis for answering questions related to Skyrim/this last week's new information.

Just for reference and perspective, I just realized these letters were written before even Infernal City took place. Was there a date on when Mede took over, and is this before even that?

That quote is exactly what I'm talking about. "Love is under your will only" is up there with "love means nobody's scored" in terms of strange otherworldly definitions for things. (Yes, I just compared Vivec to tennis). "love is the most powerful force in the universe" is hackneyed. "'love' is the most powerful force in the universe" is pretty nifty.

Back on this for a moment, a Dagoth/Lorkhan connection would also tie into the 'spirits of Lorkhan wandering Mundus' (given Dagoth's lack of corporeality) and also, most importantly, it would explain why Dagoth is able to tap the Heart without the Tools (which has always been the most unexplainable aspect of Ur).

But is he referring to it in the same way that Vivec does? Vivec's is usually in reference to CHIM, which is an inward love. I don't see CHIM-esque anologies anywhere in this.

I love how this has well passed 200 posts but the devs never expect any threads to get this long in the Lore forum.

FINALLY, the divinity of the Tribunal makes Cosmic sense to me.
As for Dagoth: No mere random dude. His role fits. False Dreamer.

And Kama Fyr's mention of Treasured Wood brings to mind some half-remembered mention of the meaning of Hermaeus Mora's name.

I just did the quest In Dawnstar where , and I wondered, could this be her contribution to the next kalpa? Maybe it's not always land that they save, but other more obscure aspects too, that way the next kalpa has more in common with this one than just some bits of soil. Afterall, I imagine it requires more to create a world than just dirt.

" They come before they are anticipated, for unless they do they may never come at all; Alduin is their antecessor, but only if Hjalti fails."

"Talos holds back the divines of the next world. This is why he became a divine of this one - divine yet unanticipated, thus his uniqueness. He upholds the dividing lines of the cosmos. Defends romance lest we lose it the pit of singularity"

Why would Vivec war against Talos? He's achieved Chim right? Isn't he higher than the rest of the divines? Why does he want to be a lower God in the next Kalpa, or am I looking at this wrong? lol

I'm lost :S

@atheelogos:
1) It's not just Vivec, there's also Alma and Seht to consider
2) If he never comes to exists in his later form perhaps it will negate his existence (and Chim) now, so he's securing his place
3) Perhaps he has some other reasonm which is beyond mortal comprehension

Who is the victor?

Talos. The Aurbis opened up to him.

For that matter, all who reach Heaven by violence.

Oh yeah. Too much daedric on my mind

So...does this mean Jygallag is connected to the rise of the Thalmor?

Not so much Jyggalag touched with the Thalmor, but that both of them, along with all the climactic events of the 3rd Era's ending, are ripples of the 4th Era's terror. Sounds, echoes, and ripples on the cosmic order of existence and [time]. Something is coming.

I may have to re-read all these letters and the 12-page responses just to come up with a smarter answer, but these letters take place just a few years after the Oblivion Crisis. TES5: Skyrim won't happen for almost another 200 years. The author is trying to convince his friend that the Time Dragon of Order is unleashed. That the Nords were right, and that Alduin is coming. The Crisis, The Greymarch, Umaril Unfeathered, the empowering Dominion -- ripples that the Dragon is returning.

At the moment, the responder is concerned for the author's wellbeing (Battlespire happened like fifty years ago. Dagon had imprisoned the author for centuries before that). Yet the author, trapped up in the "timeless" limbo of Dagon's godgravity, saw the incredible mess that hit Tamriel. The author only realized that he returned to our reality a bit early; the dragons are yet to come.

Feel free to correct me. 12 paaaages.