Ok, so I just finished Veronica's quest with the Brotherhood of Steel. Man, the Brotherhood are jerks! I know the F3 branch were somewhat rogue, trying to help people and all, but I couldn't help but like them, and think of them as the good guys. Now I see what they are supposed to be like, and I don't care for them much... with one caveat. When the elder sighs and says, "I know", it made me feel pity. This once-great organisation fading away is kind of sad. Great writing, Obsidian.

This has me curious. I never played the original two Fallouts (something I need to correct). But, from Fallout 3, I got the impression that they were still quite powerful, or at least a functioning force, out West, and the D.C. Brotherhood had simply lost contact (or was it that Lyons chose not to contact them, I forget). This game seems to suggest otherwise. I assume there are still other cells around, outside Mojave, but with the rise of NCR, they are definitely on the back foot. Actually, the game seems to imply worse, but I haven't seen or heard any mention of Brotherhood elsewhere, so I'm unclear. Now, there will be more Fallout games; it's too successful now for there not to be. But with such an important faction of the universe looking so... pitiful, where could the story go for them from here?

(Just to make sure, the Brotherhood is important in the first two games, right?)

The brotherhood were an optional faction in the first two games, and were complete JERKS. They only cared for technology. The problem with Fallout 3 is they made the Brotherhood the knights in shining armor and made them "rogue" in the sense that they were caring. The outcasts were the closest to the old brotherhood. But this game captured them quite well. Cross them, you die. Its technology and following the codex. Thats what its all about. No helping wastelanders, none of that.

You see, the NCR had a technological war with them and wiped out a lot of the Brotherhood in the Mojave chapter of the Brotherhood, so their power and numbers decreased. Seeing as how the brotherhood follows the codex to the exact last word, they of course wouldn't listen to reason, but would rather decline. Its a rather fitting death for them, though I love the brotherhood a lot.

And to be honest, I prefer this Brotherhood over Fallout 3's. No offense of course.

Re-editing this for the fifteenth time, lol. Lyons disobeyed orders in that he went and took the DC Chapter and abandoned some of the rules of the codex and Brotherhood and began to help wastelanders, and so the Brotherhood in mostly everywhere severed ties with them.

The brotherhood, also, isn't really that important. They are a staple in their power armor, sure, but they are minor in that they aren't a required faction to ally with, just helpful...except in Fallout 3, which unfortunately are required to side with (and work with) for quite a while in the game. All-in-all, I have no pity for their decline, its like a Greek Tragedy: they have 1 weakness (following the codex and rules), and even with all of their strengths this weakness will become their downfall.

Thats why I LOVED the Enclave remnants. Excellent work there. The Enclave in DC...absolutely not, I wish that never happened, but what can you do.

When Fallout 3 was made, the war between the Western BOS and the NCR wasn't canon, hence why we never heard any hints about the Western BOS being in such a state. But now the war is canon, and now we can see just how much trouble the Western BOS has found themselves in.

Every time I felt pity for the Mojave Chapter, it was from a particular line of dialogue that was usually followed up with another line of dialogue which made me hate them again. Before New Vegas I was quite well aware that the Eastern BOS was nothing like the Western BOS, and was fully prepared for them to be jerks, but I guess I wasn't prepared for just how arrogant they would be. Too arrogant for my tastes, which is why I destroyed their bunker.

As for future games, well, the Eastern BOS is thriving right now, so as long as Fallout 4 is on the East Coast I'm sure they'll be in the game as a powerful faction. But if we have anymore games in the West, I doubt the BOS will be made out to be a powerful faction anymore. I wouldn't be surprised if they aren't even the next game in the West aside from a small group of remnants like we saw in New Vegas in regards to the Enclave.

I tend to agree, while it was fun playing alongside BoS for a while, they're more along the "greedy hoarder" classification and if you help them then they may decide to toss you a bone once in a while. We should see a decently increased presence in any California DLCs or the next game if its based in the area as their main base was located in San Fransisco (with others in NCR, probably not these days, and the Den if it's included). Also thanks to some commentary on a Sierra Army Depot mod I'm making it seems they allude to their occupation of the base.

Another thing I'm unclear about is the whole war between NCR and Brotherhood. What I got from the story was that this Brotherhood chapter travelled to Mojave, and set up shop in Helios One under command of the Elder who went missing. It seems they were dominant (outside Vegas, anyway) until NCR started to move in. NCR wanted Helios, but the elder refused to abandon it because he knew about the weapon, so they fought. Brotherhood got the worst of it and retreated, and is now holed up.

The fight was just between NCR and just this chapter, as far as I can tell. Where is the rest of the Brotherhood? They left where they came from because of differences between the leadership and the elder who led them to Mojave, but it was definitely on-mission, not some sort of exile. I don't understand why they wouldn't have contacted the rest of the Brotherhood by now.

The rest of the brotherhood, as mentioned in this thread, is holed up in California, but many people must realize that much of the Brotherhood suffered from the war with NCR, in fact a big portion. It starts in Fallout 2. In Fallout 2, they became less prevalent as the leaders in tech because of the Enclave, who were also so, however the Enclave were more advanced. WAY more so, their power armor was better, they had vertibirds.... So, in New Vegas, they started taking technology from what they saw as lesser people for themselves, and were quite powerful until their defeat at Helios 1. As canon describes it, no matter how many NCR troops fell to the Brotherhoods superior technology, Knights of the Brotherhood were not easy to replace as the NCR troops were, hence no reinforcements, and the slow and steady defeat and eventual retreat of that chapter

And that gets into the Circle of Steel canon, which I would love to see a DLC for, and the unfortunate Capital Wasteland rogue chapter.

Hope that helps some.

Aside from the fact that the rest of the Brotherhood are in California, that didn't tell me anything I didn't know already from F3 and NV.

When you say, "... but many people must realize that much of the Brotherhood suffered from the war with NCR, in fact a big portion", I'd have thought you'd back up that statement. How did the Mojave chapter's defeat cause suffering to a big portion of the rest of the Brotherhood? It was a single battle, or a string of battles in one location, involving an expeditionary force of the BoS.

What I was trying to figure out with my last post was why hasn't the Mojave chapter got in touch with the Brotherhood leadership? Why not request assistance, or ask to be extracted back to wherever in California the BoS is based, rather than stay?

As was stated earlier, the BoS of California are also holed up after suffering at the hands of the Enclave and NCR. It wouldn't surprise me if they can't leave lock-down simply because there is nowhere to go.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/BOS#War_with_the_New_California_Republic

I sincerely apologize. Its early, and I could have swore I explained that because I re-edited the post over 9000 times, I guess not. :S

But I guess my post explained it, but very poorly. The Mojave chapter wasn't the only one involved in the war with NCR. Helios 1 was the Mojave Chapter defeat. Lets look a little further back. Enclave times. Enclave times was the start of the decline of the brotherhood because the enclave had superior technology, in fact other groups were starting to get power armor and therefore the "monopoly" of power armor with the brotherhood was no more, and then came the war with NCR.

In a nutshell, the NCR overwhelmed them with numbers. The Mojave chapter wasn't the only chapter involved with the war, and so in losing many knights and paladins, and there were eventually even deserters of the brotherhood who thought that their war with NCR was an inevitable loss. So with all of the losses, one can assume that there are really few numbers altogether and are rebuilding, therefore unable to send knights after the events that had transpired. The Helios 1 chapter was just an example of pure arrogance and stupidity in resisting the NCR's overwhelming force instead of retreating, and now they are under lockdown as a result.

Now, the High Elder is the one who is in charge of the entire brotherhood in California, and the war with NCR scattered them--at the moment, they no longer "control" the core region--thats NCR territory now. So as I have said, no reinforcements to spare, and they've severed themselves from the traitors in the East. This again leads into the Circle of Steel story, which I will briefly explain. Basically, they are a group of deserters who use stealth boys, and their current objective is to take back the core region. Because of their paranoia from using the stealth boys, they felt the need to get back together as a team and desert for a greater good. Schizophrenia was a major reason why the discontinued use of stealth boys was mandated by the brotherhood.

So I hope somewhere in this random incoherent nonsense that you can find something. Otherwise, I'll be back. bliviongate:

EDIT: The above link also works as well. :foodndrink:

Of course they did gain access to Vertibirds in 2 (they recruit you to sneak into/claim allegiance temporarily with the enclave at navarro to obtain the blueprints) so this may strengthen them slightly, doesn't change the desertion/breakdown they suffer but could lead to pockets holed up with decent strength if not organization.

Actually that quest you do apparently never actually confirms if they successfully obtained the vertibird prints, you did get them, but as far as I remember it, I do believe the got it. The wiki is saying something different.

Screw the wiki, I was there! lmao Ninja'd those Advance power armor wearing fairies!

...sounded like a vietnam vet for a second there....

i see what you mean, it was an optional sidequest.

:P

I was there, man....don't buy into that wiki's lies, man! They say its canon, but I remember...my sneaking skill was really high and stuff and snuck by those Enclave girl scouts with ease!

What do you mean I'm crazy?? :flame:

*nurse ushers you away and increases morphine drip*

REMEMBER NAVARRO, MAN!!!! Wait a minute...ENCLAVE CORRUPTION MA--

*dead silence*

That morphine always sooths me

But that's all Van Buren stuff, and thus non-canon, no?

Correct me if I'm wrong (I totally might be) but I don't remember anyone in NV talking about a full-on "War". The descriptions of the Helios One incident, as I remember them, made it sound like the NCR weren't fighting the Brotherhood until the Brotherhood refused to turn over the plant.

And judging by the dates, the war would be going on right before, and maybe during, Fallout 3. Sure, that branch is completely different, but wouldn't a huge war nearly wiping out the BoS have been alluded to?

Basically, sure. I accept it as canon, personally, should have explained that. Still, that does leave the Enclave suppression in the California region and possible NCR conflict left unspoken in terms of war and stuff. The NCR *hate* the brotherhood. I usually just stick with the Enclave information mostly. I would suggest playing Fallout 1 and 2 and witness the subtle decline yourself, and until the Van Buren story (if it ever will at all) is confirmed, we have little information. What we do know is that the NCR and Brotherhood had a mini conflict, and though we don't know anything else beyond that, many years have passed since Fallout 2, so maybe there were NCR wars as well. If so, Van Buren can be a credible source, and the devs could base a lot of the stuff off that. Right now, a lot of the pieces seem to fit for me. Otherwise, yeah. Fallout 2 Enclave story is most important, and the rise of NCR in Fallout 2 as well.

Anyway, its 4 am here, and I can't hold up anymore. If this thread is still up tomorrow morning I'll be sure to join back in on the discussion. Night peeps.

As the BoS in the west will not assimilate, or even interact, on anything but the barest level, and that only for essential survival needs, they can't grow. The BoS from 3 had already experienced interaction from their journey to the east...they topped up losses, and took in kids from the Pitt, so they already had a break from the Codex to start with. Added to that, as the descendant of the founder was sent east for protection, and that only within a few years of the beginning of F3, you would estimate that the state of the BoS in the west was already critical...and the Elders new it.

I would also take a guess at saying that Elder Lyons would probably have received both an update on the then current situation, as well as some instructions essentially giving him freedom of action, which is not uncommon when a military situation is hopeless.

I would suggest that most BoS elements in the west are scattered, pretty much acting independently, and digging in waiting for the end - hence the lockdown. Remember, these people simply don't interact, they are xenophobic in the extreme.

I pity them, but I pity Veronica more. She was cast out by them virtually, and by the looks of it pretty much only tolerated when she is among them. If a group are prepared to dump their own, when people are their most critical resource, based on the tenants of their faith, you won't get much joy in dealing with them. The Codex is all they have, and they will die to defend it...and that primarily means defending it against their own.

I think what happened with Lyons is that he showed up in DC and went rogue. When he alerted the BoS in California they told him that they would still acknowledge that he and his group were members of the BoS, but that's all. They would cut all communcations with him, therefore stopping him from asking for reinforcement, giving updates on his status, and getting updates on their status. Basically, they told him he could continue to use their name but other than that he should consider himself and his men to be their own group able to function however they please and they wouldn't attack him, but neither would they assist him. That could leave an opening for a war between the NCR and the BoS back west, since Lyons would have no way of knowing about that war then he wouldn't mention it in Fallout 3.

The Western BOS are just a pain in the NCR's backside, rather than a full-on force to be battled. NCR fought them at Helios One simply because they wanted it, not because "omg the BOS are in the area, attack!"

The Enclave, on the other hand, are a different matter - they are actively hunted by the NCR, and woh betide anyone admitting to being a member (various storylines in NV) After the Western Enclave's defeat, their members are treated like war-criminals, which I guess they were.

The BOS, however, can move fairly freely amongst the NCR, like Veronica, as long as they "know their place" and don't start grabbing NCR tech. And the BOS aren't interested in the NCR, unless the NCR is holding tech that they want. (In New Vegas, the BOS are in hiding because they recently fought a major battle with the NCR, and so are waiting for the heat to die down as it were)



And NOTHING in Van Buren is canon unless it subsequently appears in "real" Fallout games. The stories/quests/locations are all just design notes, like the hundreds of other boxes of design notes that Chris and Josh and Bethesda have in their archives. The only canon stuff is stuff that has actually appeared in release games.

@Unholy:

Then why would the western BoS send the descendant of their founder to Lyons?

I would suggest that if the DC BoS can't even communicate with their people in the DC wastes, they couldn't communicate across the country.

If the western BoS are in the shape they appear in FNV, it'll only take a mopping up campaign and then they're only a memory. They need to make peace and side with the NCR, it really is their only hope.

DC couldn't communicate with the Western BoS before, but they are going to be able to now; they have vertibirds which could probably cross the country in a day or two and have no need to refuel.

I'm kinda curious as to what's the canon ending for FONV; I'd imagine it's the House one, but this would seem to dictate that the Mojave BoS be wiped out.


Also, what's with the hate on the East Coast Enclave? They're WAY more "shades of gray" than the West Coast Enclave. I always see people claim that the East Coast Enclave is like "saturday morning cartoon villain" evil, but the Western Enclave were the ones who wanted to disseminate FEV throughout the entire globe...the Eastern Enclave were just trying to seize a purifier so they could restore order in DC. Their methods were quite brutal, no arguing that, but they weren't trying to wipe out the population; Eden was.

But: there are Virtibird refuelling posts (the Remnants have a bunker in one), and Daisy says she flew her virtibird until she ran out of fuel. So they do need refuelling (don't know why though, you'd assume they had nuclear engines or somesuch).

I don't think the Eastern BOS would want to travel back east anyway, unless the heir to the leadership grows up and decides he wants to go back and take charge.

(the devs have hinted that the Canon ending will be whichever ending is most popular on Steam. At the moment it's Yes-Man/wildcard)

What? NO! That's a terrible idea, that ending is awful...
Leaving stuff like that up to popular vote is a terrible idea, in my opinion. Where did they talk about that? The Yes Man ending is seriously bad...

And yeah, I thought Vertibirds have fusion reactors, why would they need refueling? Weird.