I am fairly new to the Fallout Universe. I found out about F03 in '07, but didn't know anything about the original games until recently. While waiting for F03 to come out and thinking that gamesas came up with the whole thing (Fallout series), I stupidly did nothing and waited until Oct. 27. All the while thinking that the BoS were going to be awesome heroes of the Wasteland that everyone idolizes...
I played Fo3 and found the BoS and Outcasts to be selfish hoarders bent on self gratification by stealing resources from the weak and keeping it to themselves.

A month ago, I began to read the history of the Fallout universe on The Vault wiki site. I found the Western BoS to be the same *if not worse*, but the Midwestern BoS seemed to be the less into hoarding and more into doing what is right by humanity.

Is the Western Brotherhood considered fascist, selfish, or just disgraceful?

But then again, I am a newbie and may just have misunderstood something or made preconceived notions of preconceived notions ***speaking of; not being allowed into the Citadel (

Spoiler

until Dad dies

) was an awkward let down when I first played***

EDIT: the part about stealing was a gross exaggeration that I shouldn't have used

The Outcasts are more like they are suppose to be.
They want tecnology, but they do not steal it. Nobody in the BoS steals tecnology. They want it, they are selfish because nobody else realizes anything or got the ability to develop better pieces or actually keep it safe.
What i liked about Fallout was that there was no better choices. The BoS is True Neutral, they would wipe out the mutant army treath but only if it could affect them. They do not like outsiders, but outsiders don't understand.
Heck in F1 you could say to the guy guarding the door to their bunker: "I heard you sacrifice puppies!" and ofcourse get a lecture in that they did not They are a almost mythical group, ages ahead of everybody else except the Enclave(who was hiding out in a oil ridge).

The midwestern BoS.................. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFV1QvnLVsM

For the note, the person with highest rating of good on the karma scale in Fallout 1 was the Master. That guy was also the main villan.

The Western Brotherhood, the Outcasts and especially the Capital Wasteland Brotherhood do not steal technology from others, at least not usually. They salvage technology, try to redevelop lost tech, and are usually isolationistic, keeping to themselves and not really caring about the fate of others unless it affects them.

They always did have potential to become selfish, fanatical tech hoarders, as demonstrated in the "Steel Plague" ending for Fallout 1 (deemed non-canon by Fallout 2), and Jeremy Maxson's war against the NCR in Van Buren, although we do not know how much of Van Buren Bethesda considers canon.

Did you read this page? I think it sums up the Brotherhood pretty well:

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Brotherhood_of_Steel





If anyone is fascist, it's the Midwestern Brotherhood, with their subjugation of local villages, enlisting tribals into their army by force, labor camps and Inquisition.

And if anything, the Capital Wasteland Brotherhood of Steel is too altruistic compared to their Western counterparts (which is why the Outcasts left Lyons). You seem spoiled by fantasy universes with goody-two-shoes knightly orders . Fallout is not such a universe, it is supposed to be more about shades of gray.

What I said about "stealing" was a radical over exaggeration that I shouldn't have used. :facepalm:

Thank you for your posts, I'm getting the original Trilogy soon (mail) so I'll be able to see the Midwest first hand (I didn't notice or pay enough attention to the part about "subjugation of local villages, enlisting tribals into their army by force, labor camps and Inquisition" so what I said ended up being a contradiction). It will be nice meeting the BoS for the first time in Fallout 1 and not expect a warm welcome (like I did when I was ignorant to the "big picture")

I will have to close my mind of "do-gooders" and just look at the shades of gray.

Yeah, I ended up making my self look like an idiot with this topic

Not at all. IMO, the original-flavor BoS (as represented in F3 by the "Outcasts") are arrogant jerks who care only about themselves.
And your first contact with them in F1 will be when they send you to get yourself killed in a radioactive crater - great joke, huh?

Wow, never have I seen so much disdain for an in-game faction

Bethesda have portrayed the Outcasts as arrogant jerks, and they probably would be in this instance, their whole mission has been brought down because of Lyons weak judgement. Pure BoS aren't so arrogant, and they seek many needs from wastelanders as they too seek needs from the BoS. They're not a charity. And as I mentioned in another topic, no-one's forcing you to go get yourself killed in a radioactive crater. You might actually succeed with some Rad-X and common sense.

They don't tell you about the risks and seem to think it's very funny to do it. If I tell a kid to go play in traffic, is it okay for me and my friends to laugh because he doesn't have to?

Ok, for starters, Cabbot is far too stiff to say anymore than needs to be said, it's hard to get anything out of him. The Brother to his right finds it amusing, and his reaction can't be construed as the reaction of the entire Lost Hills bunker. He is also more than happy to outline the risks involved, down to how many days travel it takes, and the RadX you will need before even considering taking the journey. Secondly, the place is called "The Glow" it's pretty self-explanatory what the significance is in a post-nuclear wasteland. I also doubt telling a kid to play in traffic is very helpful to anyone, though telling the kid is a little different than suggesting he do it to bring something back to you in order to get into your exclusive club. I also doubt a child has seen the Lost Hills bunker, much less a Brother sending any wayward children on a death run. Don't believe the rumors, you don't have to sacrifice a puppy to join the Brotherhood, and they would not let you in even if you did. Infact they'd probably think less of you for it

When dealing with the WBOS, you have to leave black and white at the door. They just more or less keep to themselves and their own agenda.... Its like that 400 pound gorilla in the room, if you dont bother it, it probably wont bother you - if you feed it a banana, you can't expect any favours in return, but if try to provoke it, heaven have mercy on your soul.

Where it comes to the test, from what I remember of the dialoge it was suggested that the Elders didnt even take it seriously - Noone was stupid enough to go there (except one niaeve wanderer who really showed them), it was just a convience "F.O.B.-off".

... unless you sacrificed the puppy in order to harvest it's brain, so that you could buld a Robobrain from scratch. Then, you'd be their new best friend!

Actually that's not a bad idea. Apparently you can make a Robobrain with any sortof brain, though its intelligence and aptitude is affected depending on which. And there is that Robobrain in NCR called toto which I *think* has the characteristics of a dog. Whether that is the result of a canine brain is beyond my knowledge. All I know is when I tried to put anything but a human brain in Skynet's vessel, it blew up >_< Though I've read it will accept any brain. If Lost Hills was accessible in FO2, I reckon they'd be drooling over Skynet incarnate (not quite made flesh but brain in a tin can, close enough ).

Believe it or not, however, that throughout the existence of mankind, there has always been at least one person, somewhere, that has altruistic and honest intent to help others. Sure, it might not always go right, but there's your shade of gray. Knights in Shining Armor and Follow-The-Money Mercenaries can share universes without everything falling apart.

Usually.

The Brotherhood of Steel's government type, most closely resembles a military dictatorship...and ironically enough I think that their style of government is more influenced by Idi Amin, M. Ghadaffi and Augsuto Pinochet, then it does the US Army or any form of American democracy.

Can anyone explain why the BoS shoots ghouls from Underworld?

BoS also have histories of cleansing mutations from the wastes.

The Pure BoS despise ghouls because they used to salvage valuable tech from the West Tek facility, a place the BoS refused to go because of the lethal radiation levels, no problem for a ghoul. And so they flagged them as lowly scavengers. There is little reason why the white knights in D.C would now shoot ghouls having found a new sense of values. Unless they've had run-ins with ferals, which is likely, but you think they'd be able to tell the difference if this is the case.


What kindof mutations are you refering to? If you're talking about the Master's army, this was a survival choice. The Scourge of the Pitt wasn't a move against mutations, they just took unmutated children to invest in their future ranks.

Amin and Khadafi? I diagree? The Brotherhood more closely resembles a mix of medieval monks and the Templar Knights IMO. The short story "A Canticle for Leibowitz" comes to mind as well..

I could very easily imagine the leader of the East Coast Brotherhood proclaiming himself King of America(reminiscent of Idi Amin proclaiming himself "King of Scotland"). Also, in a way they do have a Ghadaffi-esque way to their nature, in that they always talk as though they are the leading moral authority in the land...before you know it, they'll start chastising Ronald Reagan, and letting members of the IRA train at the Citadel.

Yeah, but the Brotherhood isn't made up of illiterate thugs with grandiose dellusions paid for by various European interests for the purpose of terrorizing their own people in order to garner super-profits from a disorganized workforce.

Democracy and the US military are essentially two opposing things. Have you been in the military? There's no democracy there, just a strict and clear chain of command. There's no voting. There's no opinion polls.

However, the Brotherhood isn't just a military organization, it's an independent autonomous community with a culture, with beliefs, with a sustained and growing population. It has families and education and a far deeper sense of connectivity other than being soldiers. Literally the Brotherhood is it's own nation, it's own tribe; and every member of every rank understands the needs and general good of that Brotherhood on a conscious and unconscious level. If we really want to derive a sort of government, you could say it is a republican meritocracy. The leadership is chosen by a strict rule of merit and those in the leadership do only what they feel is in the best interests of the whole Brotherhood. So, a concept of public good makes it republican, an absence of democratic selection without tyrannical strong-arming makes it a meritocracy.

You see, they aren't just a group, they are a community, a tribe with an intense sense of self-preservation. Their technology collection gives more credence to their existence, a purpose for their tribe, a higher purpose, which is what makes it religious, the sense that these things are greater than them.

However, all communities grow and their sense of purpose changes, this split was first seen with the Midwestern Brotherhood, and now with Lyons. Should our purpose change? Is our purpose only collecting technology? Is there something more we can do? Or even, in the Midwest's eyes, should we abandon certain codes in order to better survive in the future? The religious aspect begins to change in a way, priorities begin to change. Or, perhaps, the Brotherhood is beginning to feel a sense of preservation of the species rather than preservation of the tribe.

Dunno about that.... Jacob had that Anti-Mutie oath after all until him and Worf, I err, mean Marcus ran into each other.

Of course! This just further proves my point, doesn't it? Marcus was at least, a result of the Master's vision, he knew afterall, about the 'Master plan' (haaaah!...>_<) so he was arguably a remnant of Richard's army, who got caught out in the wastes with a BoS paladin. They tousled (tussled, whatever) for a few days before conceding to eachother. Not being able to get an advantage on one another. Those two also had their differences, Jacob afteral, wouldn't have agreed that the Master was a sane and methodical progressionist(?). And Marcus wouldn't have considered the BoS much of an evolution, either. They may have had their differences, but not being able to gouge eachother's eyes out, they united to form a middle ground between the mutagenic extremes. Jacob's opinion on some Mutants being 'alright blokes' isn't endorsed by the pure BoS faction. Note that after the Master's army was thwarted, some Mutants would have taken on a more socialist approach, and the tensions between mutants and humans would have been bridged (broken hills, NCR), But at the time, the BoS would have been heavily prejudiced against mutations. Though their opposition of mutants wouldn't have been a main priority beyond the BoS' survival.

How does one enter the BoS? Is it mainly a hereditary thing (like with the Maxson family), combined with picking up the occasional Wastelander? And how 'big' is the organization, really?

Considering the disdain with which they treat wastelanders I'd imagine recruitment in the Core BOS would be hereditary maybe with openings for discovered Vault dwellers. Personally I'm happy to see that the BOS changes as it spreads out. There's no reliable long distance communication any longer, so every regional group of any organization would become more insular keeping general ideals but applying them to the area they reside.

Ithink it's mainly one recruited from the original stock from pre war survivors in the base/vault. Outside recruitment is very rare and only exceptional persons are let in. IE you seem to have to be on the level of Vault dweller/chosen one to get in....

The Western Brotherhood has been known to recruit out of the Wasteland, but they're extremely picky with how they go about it and who they accept. I don't think former Vault Dweller is a requirement, but it does help.

That's was their main problem in the BoS-NCR war planned for Van Buren. BoS had vastly superior technology, but low recruitment rates, and NCR was the opposite - pretty poor technology compared to the Brotherhood, but vastly larger numbers. The result was a stalemate.

Obviously, the Midwestern BoS and the Eastern BoS are rather more accepting, but that brings with its own host of problems - Sarah pointing out Reddin when you first meet is an excellent example.