Still going on with the capital wasteland thing again eh? *sigh* some people never learn.

Anyways The Mojave BOS pre-helios vs. Legion. Legion would of course win. Look at how the NCR took over helios one. If the NCR can do it, the Legion could definetly do it. I'm not saying Legion would completely decimate then, no. They would probably lose quite alot of men, but would win nonetheless.

Ok, maybe the brotherhood as a whole faction can, but in New Vegas they are undermanned and far from other cells.
The NCR drove them from Helios before they could find and utilise the weapon there, even though the NCR themselves never found it.
Thats another thing where the compartimentalised and secretive structure of the brotherhood fails them in the long run, I dont think Elijah even told anyone what he suspected was there.
Now I have no doubt at all that the legion could isolate and kill the chapter in New Vegas by siege. So many options open.
Infest the area with deathclaws, possible radiation also. Bury the bunker too, there are some huge dirt shoveling devices not far away.
History has shown that a siege performed by a well supplied force over an isolated foe only ends one of two ways.
They get betrayed from within or the siegers break the walls through force. The defenders never win, they have no supply lines, no routes of escape. Fish in a barrel.

I agree that ceasar would have to dearly worry about what would happen when the rest of the brotherhood found out and that that may be enough to keep him from trying. He is crafty.

Could he take the New Vegas chapter?
Easy.

I highly disagree. The NCR barley won it as it is and not to mention the NCR actually gives every soldier a RIFLE. Plus they have Decent armor. Not to mention the BOS would be entrenched. They would decimate them from afar then use there Gatling lasers to take out several of them.

I mean just look at that hit sqaud that the BOS has or the Patrol that BOS has that can kill you after you do Veronica' s story thats a force to be reckon with as it is.

There are a lot of different scenarios so it depends. imo there isn't just one clear victor in every situation. If it was post-Helios One BoS against Caesars Legion on an open battlefield CL could win after taking heavy casualties. They do have weapons capable of punching through power armor like the AMR but how many? It won't matter how many conscripts or soldiers they have when they're only armed with rusty machetes and low caliber small arms. The BoS stands a chance if they capture CL's powerful weapons because the rest would just be cannon fodder, otherwise CL would win with sheer numbers. If it was pre-Helios One or Lyon's Brotherhood vs. Caesars Legion they would just wipe them all out in a couple days of slaughter. Plus you need to factor in location. If the BoS was in Hidden Valley CL couldnt touch them but if theyre in Helios One, they would be surrounded with little defenses, unless they have the satelite laser operational. Like i said there are many different scenarios where different sides would win, so there is no clear victor if you just say it's Brotherhood of Steel vs. Caesars Legion.

The Brotherhood are not idiots with advanced equipment, they are extremely well trained soldiers. I installed Hardin as elder, if you speak with him he will tell you why tactically they lost Helios, but Elijiah wanted them to hold it no matter what.

The Brotherhood is not gonna sit in their base and wait for the Legion to come knocking on the door at Hidden Valley, they have scouts, detection equipment, they would snipe them before they got a chance to get close, and Brotherhood tactics doesn't extend to holding their ground. It would be like this, scouts sniping their scouts, seeing waves in the distance, then the Brotherhood makes a tactical hold to wipe out waves, when things change they will withdraw, and repeat the process.

The Legion are just dumb.

But what im saying just Pre-Helios one BOS.

Its just silly to say that the Ceasers legion could take down the BOS easy.

That one squad put more of a hurt on me than all the Legion forces at the dam combined. Truly an examplee of what good heavy weapons can pull off. I don't even know why this is a debate, since if McNamara's boys actually committed to fighting the Legion there would be zero chance they wouldn't be able to just roll over the Fort and burn it to the ground. What's going to stop them, other than his paranoia?

Lol exactly CL couldn't think logically like that. Not to mention they would have graham and he would want to charge head on like he did at The Dam.

The brotherhood would have slaughtered them. As Ace and Azula said, the T-45d was used as a replacement for tanks and how the .... is some machetes gonna do anything about their armor? The BoS have fat mans, prime, the pride, power armors etc.. And what threat are the legion supposed to be with their machetes, spears and useless armors. Lanius would be slaughtered by prime and their numbers are no threat to BoS firepower. I would say BoS without doubt. Just to mention that half of their soldiers only have training in beating and hitting slaves...

Entrenched?
Thats another way of saying 'trapped'.
Ceasar has freedom of movement and they have dwindling supplies.

This conversation makes me really pissed off about what lousy treatment Power Armor received in this game. If the Brotherhood had not been a target for destruction by every single faction, they would've kept the level of indestructibility seen in Fallout 1 and 2 and Operation Anchorage. Nobody without top tier weapons can survive going up against the T-45d and especially not the T-51b. What a [censored] rip-off the armor is in this game. Even their loss at Helios one is highly suspect as being won in the favor of the NCR just because the writers wanted it that way. The NCR had to have had plot armor to take that building. In close quarters there is absolutely nothing deadlier than a man with a a minigun or gatling laser.

Let me add to everyone Legate Lanius is not in this. This is Pre-Helios one. So it would Elijah and Graham as the military commanders.
(unless your going to say post or ALL BOS facing them)

Trapped...lol the BOS are never trapped. They could pound there way out with the Power fists and super sledges. No legionary scum can survive that. Plus just a regular legionary grunt has around a total of 10-14 DT...that's not squat to a BOS paladin. BOS paladin would laugh in his face.

Yes but they are just one chapter.
They may have technological superiority, they are outnumbered by a whole lot.
Even captain Cook fell to the natives.

Look, they are introspective, they do not expand, they do not enhance relations with others. No-one will come to their aid. they will just sit there in the valley while Caesar has them surrounded and throws a dirty bomb every time activity is seen there.
Like in real life, the sieger always wins over the sieged.

Yes and BOS were outnumbered a whole lot during the battle of helios one and they almost decimated the NCR. If they can do that to the NCR they can to do far worse to the Legion.

Whos is captain cook?

Did Captain cook have power armor and a gatling laser?

I don't care how many men the Legion can throw at it, in a fight by the numbers, and not one written to favor one victor or the other, the side with the nuclear catapult comes out on top.

The Legion are in no way dumb sir. Read up on them in the wiki, they are actually very smart for a bunch of, ahem "tribals".

So let me get this straight, speaking to Hardin he said why they tactically lost Helios one meaning that it this same tactical "hole" would probably be reproduced seeing as it is all the same people. Meaning Legion would win would they not? Sure, it may take a while and both sides may lose an outstanding amount of troops but Legion could very well win.

DId the natives have rifles and dirty bombs?
Please try to make sense.

Captain cook had offshore cannons and rifles and means of defending his ship wich was in essence a floating fortification.
The natives were in the stone age. He was killed by spears on a beach, probably totally unprepared.

The actual point is that superiority of technology doesnt matter. Numbers, tactics and preparation do.
History has shown this time and time again.
A large well organised force will win over a centralised and introspective one every time.

Rome got stormed by Hannibal.

If technology is not involved, Elijah would not be making the tactical asessment, he would leave that to his senior-paladin, Hardin.

But it is involved. The BOS knew about the super weapon that was archimedes 2. That super weapon is a gigantic piece of technology. Elijah would have to be involved.

You mean one side and thats the Legion. Your severely underestimating the BOS. I dont think you realize the equipment they have. Like Elder mcnamera said when you got rid of the NCR ranger"good, you used his fear of the powder gangers to get him away when he has no clue of what is far more powerful under these bunkers"(it went something like that)

Sure the Legion can charge with a bunch of guns but will those guns penatrate there armor? Lol NO.

@Meria that just shows that he underestimated his foe and one rule of battle is not to underestimate your foe.

The Legion can't achieve victory over Securitrons, and they've got roughly equivalent firepower while being more susceptible to fire. Your argument doesn't even make any sense. Guided missiles and nuclear bombs are not going to lose to beskirted creeps with lawnmower blades.

History says otherwise.
History says that not once, not ever did an isolated faction survive a siege from a well organised force without outside aid.
But, sure, have it your way and be laughed at by tacticians and historians alike.
Im done with this conversation.
People wish to press their beliefs without even looking at what argument someone else presents, fine.

Your arnet looking at the facts and Lore of the BOS. Power armor is what replaced TANKS, and who has power armor...the BOS..