SI SENOR

I agree. The guild is just the guild. Most don't really have a distinct definition of moral compass or what-have-you.

And yah, Oblivion didn't have quite the same feeling.



I'd say keep the guild kind of more as a guideline of what they do for their job and have the individuals create the moral diversity. Not every guy(or gal) who signs up for the fighter's guild is there to be a vigilante justice to clean up the world and protect people: yah, they get certain contracts to do so, and one of the requirements to join is to not be a massive criminal. But that's not necessarily why they happen to be there.
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Yes to opposing guilds, but not like the example in the OP; it feels too contrived that each guild would have an enemy that just so happens to have the same specialization (a 'good' mage guild vs an 'evil' mage guild). Something more organic would be preferable.

Yep. I'm for that!

They are probably coming back in Skyrim. :celebration:

I like those examples.

I would not like things like Mages vs. Thieves or Mages vs. Fighters or Thieves vs. Fighters though. I don't want to see exclusiveness for the sake of it. Your examples make sense.

I'm guessing it's going to be the Synod (probably keeping the Mages Guild tradition of shunning necromancy) versus the College of Whispers (which I suspect supports necromancy).

The thing about guilds or organizations is that they are generally set up not to step on each other's toes, and wouldn't have much in the way of organizations against them. Thieves should be stealing from everyone, assassins should be killing everyone, mages should be taking care of all things magical and so on. Not that a fighter can't steal a contract off a mage now and then to kill an imp, but organizationally it doesn't make a lot of sense to have guilds going against each other.

Why, by all means, yes. As long as they aren't exclusively a business of holier than thou versus pure evil.

Opposing factions would be great, but I don't want the "typical evil vs good" thing. The Fighters Guild could have a cempedator that opperated within the law that proved to be very effective, and the Synod could have a rival in the College of Whispers. The "good vs evil" would of course work for some factions, maybe something along a knights order vs a large, organized marauder gang. Having a little of both would be great.

I would like to see opposing factions and guilds, but more in the vein of New Vegas than Morrowind.

Dagoth Ur was decently grey, I mean he really thought what he was doing was right. He was trying to just unite the Dunmer against the empire and the other races. He wasn't just "evil".



Also yes, morally grey and some black and white opposing factions.

More like Thieves Guild vs Guards and tDB vs Guards

I also want my character feel like they actually ACHIEVED something important when rising in the guild ranks. I have done just 4 or 5 quests, can only cast a handful of spells, but I am now ARCHMAGE of the mages guild? Sorry, but the amount of pride in accomplishment is proportional to how much work one had endure to reach that goal. Getting to archmage in Oblivion kind a felt like something on your daily checklist.... Take out the trash... check. Change the oil in my car... check. Become the most powerful mage in all of Cyrodil... check. Laundry... check.

there should be plenty of guilds, why do you have to join them both, or even one of them for that matter?

Pretty sure that if the Mage's Guild has been replaced by two organizations that perfect harmony between them is unlikely. A country torn by a civil war is also likely to have rival political factions.

well all the main guild like The fighter Guilds,mages guild,ect should not have rival.

only political houses,clan and stuff like that should have.

It would be good to have some conflicts between factions, but having to make a joinable anti-faction for every faction might limit their creativity too much. They could've written in a fight between the Dark Brotherhood and the Thieves Guild, but the plot they had focusing on the internal conflict in the DB was more interesting than that would be, IMO. Or the Cammona Tong vs. Thieves Guild fight in Morrowind; it wouldn't have worked to let an Argonian or an outlander join the CT. So I'll agree halfway; put in conflicts where it helps the story but it doesn't need to be in every faction.

I like to play manipulative characters. The third option should not be easy to come by. It would require the player to really pay attention and think things through to find a beneficial option on their own, or something like that. It wouldn't just be a third dialogue choice. From a roleplaying perspective, it just means my character is manipulative and likes to make others dance to the beat of his/her drum. If you don't want that for your character, that is why options would exist.


Dagoth Ur was referred to as the Devil, yet he did not strike me as evil at all. The same can be said for the other examples you gave. Yes, they are often presented in a "good vs. evil" manner, but that's because that is how the people of Tamriel view it and it is only through their dialogue that you're given this impression. Looking more deeply into things, I would not consider Mehrunes Dagon or anyone else to truly be "evil." A lot of different circumstances dictate these actions. Mankar Camoran thought he was giving the Daedra what was rightfully theirs. Nothing is done for the sake of being evil.

The houses were cool in morrowind, also that the thieves guild and mages guild had a grudge were cool The cool thing would be if the different "guilds", "houses" or what it will be interacted with eachother in some way not jsut negative against eachother but also positively would be fun to give a feeling of a liviing world.

well the final eventin the prophesy of the dragons returning is Skyrim having a civil war, so they do have rival factions.

If this is the impression I gave, I apologize. I was not suggesting such a rigid structure and my examples were only examples, presented without the necessary plot/reason behind them; and I do not advocate making every faction pure good or pure evil, but I believe TES presents factions for the most part as either good, neutral, or bad, to varying degrees. In short, I agree with everything you said, except the insults. I did get "the point with Morrowind", and I am advocating a return to Morrowind-like factions, as opposed to Oblivion-like simpleton dullville factions where you simply do the quests and become leader of every faction, so implausible and dull.



Ah, philosophy. I understand what you are saying, but I disagree with the conclusion. Al Qaeda believes what they do is right, and I understand their motivations and justification, yet I still say slaugthering thousands of people - innocent or not - is still wrong. No, I would not say that Dagon, Dagoth Ur, Camoran, and the DB are 100% pure evil, noone is, but they are - subjectively - evil nonetheless.

Still, whether or not TES presents "good" and "evil" to one degree or another is actually off topic. I appreciate our conversation on this, but the main point of the thread is "opposing" factions, so I will decline to comment on this further.


Of course, and it seems 94% of the forum goers since I posted this yesterday agree with us. I actually had no idea so many people would agree

Yes yes yes! Mutually exclusive factions are an absolute must for replayability.