Eden also lies. So, either Eden learned to be deceptive, or he was programmed to do so. As Skynet proved in FO2, a computer can become...evil.

But anyway, when Autumn Sr and crew arrived at RR they could have programmed Eden any way they saw fit.

Because this historical trivia is worthy of lying about of-course.


Yeah, all those sentient computer sciencists and all.

How all very convenient.

Questions:

Did the Enclave know there were survivors on the mainland?

Did the Enclave know there were people in Vaults across the country?

Does Richardson claim people on the mainland are not citizens?

Yes.


Yes.


No. Not that I'm aware of.

Where you are going with this I have no idea. I'm not arguing that the Enclave/U.S. Government hasn't killed American citizens. Whoever the U.S. Government is/was they have certainly killed U.S. citizens both pre-war and likely post-war.

I'm simply arguing that the wastelanders aren't U.S. citizens, and if the Enclave isn't the government. Then no-one is or can be, since the state no-longer exists.

Exactly. And does the Enclave make any kind of effort to help these survivors? No. In fact, they are going to kill them, even those who are Pure-Strain humans.

Not much of a government.


So, then are you saying that regardless, the Enclave is not the government? Obviously, if there is no USA, then there is no government, or even a president. So, therefore, the Enclave is nothing more than, say, a little more high-tech version of the BoS.

What I'm saying is that "constitutionality" doesn't have much weight in the Fallout universe. The official pre-war Government (whoever that was) clearly killed United States citizens and was quite unconstitutional by our definitions. Take that as you will.


If the Enclave is the government, then the area of the territorial United States shrunk to only those areas that the Enclave (as the United States Government) exercised control over.

I see. So then, when the United States purchased the Louisiana Territory, it was not a part of the country? Or all the other territories, that at this time were not states, were nit a part of the USA? See, the USA owned this land. This land, was populated by citizens. These citizens formed local government. Eventually, they would become states.

In the meantime, the citizens had all the rights of citizens. In some instances, the support of the federal army, to protect them.

So, then in the FO world, the USA does not lose this land. It is not occupied by a foreign country. You are claiming the USA is only a rig, which is just an object, and Navarro. I beg to differ, that IF the Enclave was the government, or just claiming to be the government, then it was their duty to protect these people. Otherwise, they have no right to be the gov't or even make a claim that they are. Sure, they can claim it, but actions speak louder than words, and basically, they are full of cow patty.

They are traitors to the people.

Now, you can say the pre-war government wasn't awesome, that they did some shady stuff. But, as far as we know, mass murder of the USA was not on the list.

I am guessing you don't want the Enclave to be portayed as some evil group, that is only self-serving. But unfortunately, government or not, they basically are. If the pre-war govt was evil, well the Enclave have out eviled them.

It seems like you are trying to justify the Enclave actions of killing people with FEV, by claiming well, they are not citizens, and it not even the USA. But, according to Richardson, and Eden, it isn't about citizens, it is about mutation. Yet, Richardson even going to kill those who are pure-strain, even though he has verts and could reach them and give them the vaccine. But, they do not want to, because they are self serving.

You are assuming when I meant "territorial control" that I meant that United States territory were not United States soil. That's not what I'm saying. Obviously when the United States purchased Louisiana, it was part of United States soil.


They lost they land when it was no longer administered by the United States government. The state lost control of the territory and both failed to restore order or to exercise legal authority over it.

When new states sprung up such as the NCR and Legion, the point was made all the more certain.

You know what also seals my conclusions? The fact that there is virtually no wastelander that, when you asked them, would consider themselves U.S. citizens. None. They are citizens of new nations.


Yet the killing of quite a few citizens was.


I'm not.

And I am saying the Enclave, IF the government, lost control by choice. Failure to act, refusal to act, forfeits any claim of "US Government".

They did nothing. They lost control because they did nothing.

Order was eventually restored in many areas, with no help of the government, and again, if you ask me, just because local government steps forward to regain control where the federal government failed, that does not void citizenship.

Btw, Abraham Washington probably considers himself a citizen. What about ghouls who were actually alive in 2077?

But, I guess I nees to re-read your posts, cuz it seems like you were trying to defend some action of the Enclave by stating "well they not citizens so..."

Kudos to you then. I don't agree with it, but its your interpretation, not mine.


Where was order restored? Which United States commonwealth or local governments still exist?

Order was restored by different nations, like the NCR. Yes.


He can consider himself a citizen all he wants. Plenty of illegal immigrants in the United States do as well. Doesn't make it legally correct.

Also for ghouls I cannot say. Assuming that the Enclave is the government, the definitions of citizenship may have been interpreted to mean only humans (which is what they were originally intended for). I can't say because there is no real-world precedent.


Regardless of whether or not they are citizens, that doesn't make killing them okay. Both myself and Mr. Enclave recognize that the releasing of the FEV virus is quite a disgusting action. So does Richardson, but he believes its a choice that has to be made.

Wouldn't the vaults be considered US soil, territory, whatever?

They are technically, the property of the US Government. If it is, everyone born within is a US citizen.

Isn't a US Embassy in a foreign country considered in a way a part of the USA?

And where does it say exactly that if the federal government no longer has control over an area, that the area is no longer a part of the USA?

I need to whip out my constitution I guess.

Yes. I think I've already established that both the pre-war and post-war government has killed United States citizens.


Yes, because its in the control of the United States and internationally recognized as such.


It has nothing to do with the Federal Government. It has to do with state sovereignty. A state can claim de jure sovereignty of an area it has no control over, but not de facto.

Even if the Enclave claimed de jure administration, that would be null and void at this point, what with every "citizen" having sworn allegiance to other nations and other nations controlling the territory of the former U.S.

This is really a silly debate. Are you claiming that NCR citizens are also United States citizens? Even though the state hasn't existed for 200 years according to you?

Why are we debating this again? I've already said I'm not making excuses for the Enclave and I've already shown that both the Enclave and the pre-war United States government was quite unconstitutional.

You don't even think the Enclave is the government? So what's your purpose? You just want to believe that the wastelanders are still U.S. citizens?

I'm just trying to figure out what is what. And sure, I think a NCR person can be a US citizen, if you take the NCR as more or less a state government and not a nation.

I really don't consider the NCR a nation, as much as a state and local government that made due with no federal government around.

Plus, if a VD is a US citizen, then technically, yes, even those VDs in the NCR are still US citizens.

Also, if people are citizens, then technically Autumn is not wrong.

I was a little confused for a minute because I thought you were attempting to justify Enclave actions, by stating they were not citizens. I see what you are saying. Now I am just trying to piece together what is what.

That seems like an awfully weird view. The NCR certainly wouldn't consider itself a "state" of the United States. It considers itself its own nation, just like the Legion considers itself its own nation.

You just can call youself a citizen of a state which (according to you) hasn't existed for 200 years. That's really quite ridiculous.

If you can, then please sign me up for citizenship in the Austro-Hungarian Empire.


After a certain point after they left the vault they wouldn't be, and if the Enclave never had contact with them or administered to the Vault, then they were no different than the wastelanders.

I'm saying under the circumstances. NCR can call itself whatever it wants, it is, to me, still in US soil. I don't fault them for carrying on their own governments. It is a republic, and under the circumstances, ok by me. Legion, is not a republic.

Each state in todays world has their own constitution, and their own laws. Again, under the circumstances of nuclear war, I see no problem with what the NCR has done.

Again though, I don't get your last comment, because, again, you make a claim that a person is not a citizen if the Enclave, IF the Federal government, makes no contact, they are not, or no longer citizens. Something like that, would have to be in the constitution, and I do not see it.

And I'm saying that's quite silly. The area of North America isn't inherently "U.S. Soil."

That's like making the claim that the state of Israel is still a state of the Ottoman Empire since its still in "Ottoman territory."

The NCR is its own nation, not a state of the United States.


Its not making contact, its exercising sovereignty and it doesn't need to be in the constitution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereignty

"Hobbes' hypothesis that the ruler's sovereignty is contracted to him by the people in return for his maintaining their safety, led him to conclude that if the ruler fails to do this, the people are released from their obligation to obey him.

Bodin's and Hobbes's theories would decisively shape the concept of sovereignty, which we can find again in the social contract theories, for example, in Rousseau's (1712–1778) definition of popular sovereignty (with early antecedents in Francisco Suárez's theory of the origin of power), which only differs in that he considers the people to be the legitimate sovereign."

This is getting to what the founding fathers were going for. Sovereignty goes to the people. Which, is why I think, they are citizens.

In the absence of fed govt, it is up to state. In the absence of state, it is township. All of it, the people. Hobbes and Locke were two influences of the founsers, been awhile since I had civics, so I'm no master, but could look up social contracts.

But, fine. You don't think they are citizens. I do. And I think if the Enclave wanted to call itself the gov't, it should have done something, but they did not, so they lost their right to rule. CoG, no CoG, legit govt or illegal, they failed.

And by that logic, the wastelanders clearly want nothing to do with the United States and have declared loyalties to other states. Point proven.


That's based upon one interpretation. Keep in mind that many states that have abused these ideas of "serving the people" have still been considered legitimate governments, ie. government that international organizations deal with.

So thus do you consider the Legion its own soverign government? By this definition (ie. "serving its people are caring for them) you shouldn't.

Also they did lose their right to rule over the people of the wasteland, I'm not contesting that, nor am I saying that the Enclave has any authority over the wastelanders.

They continued to have the right to rule over the individuals they still protected and administered to.

EDIT: Actually, can we just agree to disagree here? We aren't going to get anywhere and you and I clearly have differing political opinions.

Sure. I'm kinda seeing where you are coming from. Where I am coming from is the USA is more than just some sovereignty.

The Constitution and Declaration are the ideas, and more importantly, rules and laws of the "sovereignty".

Which is why I said I have no problem with how NCR formed, as it is a Republic. The Legion is not a republic. So, it goes against the rules of the USA.

Sovereignty is just..well, basically philosophy. For the America, USA, "philosophy", it would be illegal, IF someone can enforce it, which is the real issue.

That is why Enclave full o crap. They could have, for example, sent representatives to NCR and been like "hey look, we are the old world federal govt. We see you fine Americans have done your part rebuilding. Lets work together blah blah blah, need to cure mutants bleh blah bleh."

Of course my first response of NCR would be "ummm..where ya been?"

But, none of this happened, because the Enclave was not the federal government, but a bunch of elitist tools who were self serving and cared about nothing. But, that is why I like em.

Anyway, you are right. We agree Enclave had no rightful claim to govern, we just have a littke philosophical difference. Good to see I kinda get where you are coming from, even though a disagreement.

And because they didn't do that they are not a soveign nation why? LT has already said that the Enclave has no legal authority over the wastelanders so the Enclave not interacting with them has no effect on their legal status at all; hell the troopers refer to you as an "Illegal Alien" at one point so it's clear that the Enclave doesn't consider the mainlanders U.S. Citizens.

Oh and I'm sure that they and the NCR would have worked happily together with a mutually beneficial relationship, like the NCR trading medical supplies with Vault City, nobody in the NCR wanted to take that any further did they? Didn't hire any Crime Lords for a false flag operation did they? The Enclave is rightfully very distrustful of the mainland populace, that's why they didn't interact with them (foreign and potentially hostile people) amicibly.

LT has provided a reason why the mainlanders aren't U.S. Citizens, the game proves that they do not consider them U.S. Citizens; therefore the Enclave is acting from the prespective that they are not.

From the perspective of sovereign philosophy based upon Locke, Hobbes and others, the Constitution and Declaration of Independence, the documents that created the laws and rules of the sovereignty of the USA, then the Enclave is NOT the USA Government.

What they are, is basically an entire new sovereignty. Just like the Legion. The NCR follows the Constitution more so than the other two, and especially more than the Legion.

Based upon the ideas and philosophy behind the creation of the USA, wastelanders are citizens, and it is their right, to setup new governments, with a Republic philosophy.

I'm not disputing the failure of the Enclave. I get that they failed, and that their claims, are completely false. They can view wastelanders whatever they want. They, themselves, are nothing more than a new faction, a new government, but definitely not the USA govt.

If soveignity was just a philosopy how does it have laws and rules? The Constitution can be amended by Congress, especially in say a post-war scenario were a new emergency Congress has been formed with similar sweeping emergency powers - know what I'm saying. How do you think it would have gone down IRL? You think that the U.S. Government would consider human rights and freedoms paramount when they're trying to rebuild the nations agriculture and industry whilst trying maintain law and order? Didn't President Lincoln suspend Haebeas Corpus with the consent of the Senate and then passed as an Act of Congress soon after? Very against the ideals and philosophy of the Consitution right? Parts of the Constution have been suspended in previous states of national crisis. There is a historical precident, makes sense it could happen again without an already bent pre-war/immediate post-war government like in Fallout.

I agree with the Evl of yesterday, the political make-up of the United States is far too vauge to make any such sweeping accusations.


And are centuries old ideals and philosophy really relevant to a changable document in the Fallout world? And of course it's their right to set-up entirely new nations, why would it not be - they're not U.S. Citizens afterall and not accountable with treason or something - and I wasn't aware that the U.S. Constitution was a copy-right on Republicanism (otherwise I don't know why you mentioned it?).


What happened to not knowing about the legislative and politics of the Fallout U.S., guess you've got it all pretty nailed down now.

How exactly? This is a vague statement backed up by philosophical concepts that have little to actually do with the real-world workings of governments and the concept of citizenship.

Based upon the definitions you yourself laid out, not even the pre-war United States Government was the United States Government. Is that what you are suggesting?


Constitutions can be changed, amended, or even torn up.

If the United States were to drop its constitution and become a monarchy, the monarchy would certainly be the United States Government.

Well, you guys should prolly read the Declaration and Constitution. Pretty sure for example, in the Bill of Rights it states that people are guaranteed to a state government, as long as that government is a republic. It basically puts forth that the only "legal" form if govt, is a Republic, as far as inside the USA.

Also, people don't need social security cards, passports, drivers license, to be a citizen. They sure didn't have any of those things in the 18th or 19th century...but, they sure were citizens.

It makes sense to me, for example, that the NCR is formed basically from descendants of Vault Dwellers. Unless noted, as a part of an experiment, most vaults came equipped with learning center, and I am guessing, history and civics. Shady Sands folk would thus have had some kind of knowledge. So, they formed a republic, and had elections, etc.

Been awhile, but pretty sure the LW kinda calls out the old dude spouting about Enclave. Can't remember what he says though. Also, as much as a tool that he is, Dave pretty much grasps the idea on how America was formed, but not exactly, and it basically takes the educated LW to point this out.

Enclave can enact any emergency powers they want. They can even claim to be king of the planet, even solat system. Doesn't matter. The federal government failed. The Enclave is now its own group, with its own laws, that have zero bearing on the USA. Their claims, are full of crap. IF they would have actually done something, then I could maybe agree they at least tried to be the fed, but, they did not.

So, once the fed fails, the responsibility of government goes to the people, and, that is what they did. A very "American" approach.

Because they lived within the state, paid taxes to it, and were legally bound by the laws of the nation and state.

People cannot be citizens of a state which doesn't exist. This isn't a matter of debate. Forget the Enclave as government theory for a moment.