Okay example: it is 2078. Hmm, lets say April. I crawl out of my bunker with my family. We, are all, citizens.

I roam around, and find other survivors. They, too, are citizens. We build shelters, and wonder what going on. We wonder if any help is coming from the fed. In the meantime, we build shelters, and work to survive.

After another 6 months, we basically realize there is no help coming any time soon, so, as is our right, we form our own government, based upon the values of the USA. We have elections, and setup positions. We are the township of Snarf. We are all Americans.

Your claim is that we toss aside "American", and we are now the Nation of Snarf.

And I disagree.

Now, same scenario. Crawl out. I enslave nearby survivors, and eat some. I meat some like minded killers and we group up, enslaving and killing. I obviously have no morals nor care for the rights of others. My group is lead by me with a iron fist.

Am I a citizen? Yes. But I am also a law breaker, with no regard for the rights of others. IF the fed, or state govt swooped in, I would be punished. If I meet others who respect the values of others, would prolly war them. I am my own faction, with my own rules. I may even declare myself my own nation, and I may claim to be ruler of the entire land. I'm obviously full if it, but... I was a citizen, I just decided to no longer honor those values.

That is where I'm coming from in a nutshell.

Snarf snarf.

Hi people! I just wanted to stick my head in this discussion and tell what my opinion is, and that is just what I am going do! I think that Enclave and Brothehood of Steel are about the same... When talking about their goals, of course! (Enclave IS losing the battle!)
Both have some higher goals than "helping" the people of the wastes. So I am staying neutral. Also, a question: Are we speaking of Enclave and BoS generally, or west coast/east coast/midwestern ones?
Does not matter, because I am here to chew bubblegum and kick ass. (And guess what I am all out of)
*shot*

Your all out of ass (AMIIGHT? )

How are they not US citizens? All you need is to be born on US soil. Even if your parents are illegal immigrants and you are born in the US you are a citizen. You just believe what you want to about the Enclave and how government works. That is literally all it takes to be a citizen. Nothing else is required. The Enclave aren't good either. They are evil, most of their motives are misguided and they are basically the enemy of any free thinking person who values human life.

You could live your whole life in real world modern day America without any ID, without paying a single tax ever(though no sales taxt at any point would be difficult to get by without paying at some point, and still be a US citizen.

I would say that's a rather incorrect view after 200 years. But I'm tired of debating this.


I wasn't aware any of the land the wastelanders lived on is United States soil, its not controlled or administered by the United States anymore since the state no longer exists. Once again, that's like claiming individuals living in Armenia are still Ottoman citizens because that area was once part of the Ottoman Empire. Is that what you are arguing? Because its the exact same principle. I've already had this debate with evilbastrd and I'm repeating myself.

But I'll say it again:

The area of North America, contrary to what is apparently some people's erroneous belief, is not inherently United States soil. Thats a rather arrogant statement to make that this land will always be the territory of "the United States."

I honestly cannot believe I'm having to make this point. The fact that people believe that 200 years after a state has fallen, that individuals can still be citizens of the state simply because they live in the area that it used to control is absolutely ridiculous.