The United States survived. The Enclave maintained US tradition and legislation and never renounced claims on US mainland. Thus, they are "America". Consider the Enclave a government-in-exile. When Poland fell to Nazis and Soviets, their leaders escaped to Britain and founded their government-in-exile which was in the West considered the legal government of Poland even if they did not have authority on their country. When the Nazis fell Hitler did pass authority to a successor government, led by admiral D?nitz, but his government was destroyed and the leaders captured soon after and thus Nazi Germany does not exist any more. It's all about legislation. The Enclave is the closest thing we have for a US government: they exercise authority on at least parts of the United States and there are no competing factions to claim the title. Thus, the Enclave can be considered "America".

The Enclave:

I do not think their primary goal is survival, however in a nuclear war it is right up there and a necessity of their primary goal, which is to: sieze control of the US Government.

The Enclave obviously had a lot of their membership, so to speak, from Poseidon Energy. If this was just a Poseidon project, and had no Enclave involvement, talking about the rig here, why was the Rig not named after Poseidon, or given A greek/roman name? I say it was not, because of Enclave involvement. The actual govt doesn't know about the Enclaves involvement, and actually, that insignia could have been created post war. If they can build verts, I think they could design a new entry floor to the rig.

I also don't know if the Vault Experiments are Enclave idea or actual government. It is hard to say what pre-war activity is whose. For example, Enclave took over FEV, but pre-war that was not Enclave. You can kind of tell what pre-war corps were heavily influenced by Enclave, or not by in game fact.

For example, Poseidon was heavily influenced, controlled, etc by Enclave. Vault-tec, somewhat. Whoever designed Verts were heavily influenced as were whoever made power armor and energy weapons.

But again, why call themselves anything but US Govt? Why be the legit govt, as you say, then one day say, hey lets change our name to this rig name!

High Elder Arthur: it is not traitorous to disobey an immoral order. It is a soldiers duty to disobey when faced with such a thing.

Yeah love the country hate the people. You did notice how inhumane they were? Face it Eden wannabe they are no better then any wasteland raider group, they just have a hopeless goal thats all.I consider Enclave as a high tech mass murderers. So in that case i consider the so called ''america'' a group of people that kill people trying to get by. Nothing chances the fact that they are murderers and at one point slavers.

Is it tradition to kill your citizens? The role of govt is to serve the people. The Enclave served themselves. They did a great job taking over the pre-war govt, but that is it. Almoat everything else they do is unconstitutional, starting with the murder of US citizens. If the real government who cares, why not research FEV to find a cure for mutation? Like Dr Henry was trying.

And the pre-war government of the Fallout Universe "served" its citizens with honor and dignity right? Because the pre-war American Government was always constitutional correct?

People throw around terms like "the Enclave can't be the government because they're unconstitutional" like that has some sort of meaning at all. We don't even know what the definition of constitutionality was in the Fallout universe, and imposing our definition is silly to do, because we are arguing for the Enclave as the government of the Fallout universe, not in our own damn world.

The pre-war Government of the Fallout universe was just as unconstitutional based upon our own definitions.



Then why even pretend to be the U.S. Government if they blatantly use the name the "Enclave"? Who the hell are they trying to convince in the post-war world? Themselves? Richardson wanted to kill everyone else that wasn't Enclave.

They just as often refer the themselves as the "United States" as they do the "the Enclave." They are "The Enclave of the United States of America" "Enclave" as in the last bastion of United States Government authority. The word "enclave" could be used in the sense of its actual definition you know.

Its just as likely that the term "Enclave" either came from the Oil Rig when it was designated a post-war COG facility, or that it came from the designation the U.S. Government gave to the post-war operating government that would become the Enclave.

But you know: lets forget about this for a moment. We've gone over this debate time and time again.

Why do you like it better if the Enclave isn't the government? Please tell me it isn't because you don't like the idea of the U.S. Government being the "bad guys."

LT: I never said the pre-war govt were angels. But there were a lot if things that were kept secret from the people, and even to the Enclave.

And why is it better that the Enclave was not the govt? Because if the Enclave was the govt, the govt was weak and sloppy.

As powerful as the Enclave is in the FO world, they are nothing compared to the actual government. Like has been pointed out in the tech thread, if they were the legit givt, with all those resources available, then... where is this power?

The greatest Navy in the world...gone. There are nuclear weapons still around, and this true legit government is clueless about them? Military bases that are would be extremely valuable, the Enclave has no idea about??

The Sierra Depot would be a gold mine to the Enclave, no idea about it.

So, all these resources and the govt doesn't use them, or even know about many of them. And that does not make sense, and just abandoning all of these resources to sit on a rig, makes no sense.

Unless, they were not the real govt. In fact, the BoS is almost as technologically advanced as the Enclave. BoS getting close anyway, yes Enclave more powerful, but it isn't as much of a gap as say BoS/Legion or even BoS/NCR.

I have zero problems with a govt bad guy. I have problems with a terrible weak stupid govt, which is supposed to be, in the game, a super power.

So...if the Enclave isn't the government....then where is this power? Did it just disappear when the Enclave performed their coup?

That doesn't make any sense. The Enclave isn't the government because they lack all the resources and power of the pre-war government, but the legitimate government also doesn't have this power either despite the Enclave not being the government.

What? Hasn't your whole argument been about the absolute devastation that Nuclear War brings? There's your answer, there was a nuclear holocaust.


According to the timeline, the Pacific Fleet was ordered to the Oil Rig prior to the start of the Great War. In the 200 year span the Enclave were on the Rig, the ships were likely scuttled and used for raw materials.

Also keep in mind that much of the military power of the United States was off fighting in China, so that's where a good portion of it went.


What are you talking about? How do you know they had no clue concerning the nuclear weapons lying about? What use would they be anyway when the Enclave was planning on being much more efficient at killing their enemies with the FEV Curling 13? Why do they need or want nuclear weapons?

How do you know they have no idea about other bases? The supposed Shadow Government of the United States doesn't know the location of army bases?


Perhaps this is my lapsing of Fallout 2 knowledge coming out, but how do you know this, is it ever said that they don't know where Sierra is? Besides what does the Sierre depot have that the Enclave doesn't already? "Mountains of ammo and medical supplies" the Enclave have plenty for themselves and can produce their own weapons and armor? Why the hell do they need Sierre?

Furthermore, I find it ridiculous that you are suggesting a powerful cabal/shadow government of the United States wouldn't know about this information and yet they (according to you) successfully planned and implemented a coup of the United States Government, and operated the vault experiments right under the Government's nose, oh, and used the Oil for their own personal clubhouse, and designed and tested weapons without the Government ever finding out.


It seems to me you are acting as if the Enclave isn't powerful at all and thus not deserving of the title of the "American Government." When the Enclave is the only faction to have gotten close to absolute victory with the Curling FEV-13.

There is a lot more then ammo in Sierra. There is a army of robots, and Skynet. Not to mention a yummy brain extractor.

The Enclave, knows a decent amount, but they do not know everything. Seems to me the actual govt would know a lot more.

Using the FEV is a plan for about 5 years prior to FO2. So, FEV wasn't their super plan. Why nothing else? The actual govt, who knows about all these facilities, and does NOTHING for 160 years? If they knew everything and felt FEV was so valuable, they would have been there before The Master.

The "power" of the pre-war govt is still out there. Sitting in the wasteland waiting to be scavenged. Or, it has been found, by people like the Master, BoS, Enclave, even the NCR, FoTA, Ulysses, raiders, wastelanders, and scavengers. The nuclear war, the coup, the chaos all worked against the pre-war govt.

I did not say the Enclave knows nothing. They are powerful, in FO. But, there are many things they do not know, when if the actual true blue govt should know. Just because they have compromised some aspects of govt and industry does not mean they have all the info and details that the actual govt has.

We also don't know if Vault Experiments was Enclave, or the actual pre-war govt. You act like a shadow govt is just as powerful as the actual govt. I am saying they are not, and that is why there are a vast number of things the Enclave have no idea about. Otherwise, why in the world would they not take it and use it? Not only that, leave it for someone else to find and use it against them.

I wasn't using the term 'traitor' in a negative context. I was just saying how one could perceive Roger and Company as traitors due to the simple fact they defected. They had good reasons though.

And why would the fact that the Enclave may or may not have legitimate government of the United States of America mean anything? America failed, the US government failed. If tge Enclave wanted legitimate authority over the Wasteland, why didn't they swoop in when the Master and his Unity Plan threatened them? Oh, that's right, the Wastelanders, the people decended from citizens of the America are not "legitimate" Americans, but the decendants of the leaders of America are the "legitimate" leaders of America.

I wasn't using the term 'traitor' in a negative context. I was just saying how one could perceive Roger and Company as traitors due to the simple fact they defected. They had good reasons though.

And why would the fact that the Enclave may or may not have legitimate government of the United States of America mean anything? America failed, the US government failed. If tge Enclave wanted legitimate authority over the Wasteland, why didn't they swoop in when the Master and his Unity Plan threatened them? Oh, that's right, the Wastelanders, the people decended from citizens of the America are not "legitimate" Americans, but the decendants of the leaders of America are the "legitimate" leaders of America.

Researching and creating new technologies certainly doesn't seem like nothing.

In any case, we differ on a fundamental opinion. I personally prefer the idea that the Enclave is the United States Government and you don't. So no matter what evidence we bring to the table we both are not going to budge from our positions. I'm willing to recognize that yours is a legitimate theory if you are wiling to do likewise.


I don't believe they have legitimate authority over the wasteland or the wastelanders, because I don't believe the wastelanders are Americans. They have their own loyalties to their own new nations and while they may be descendants of the U.S. citizens that doesn't mean that they are. The only government the Enclave is "government" of, is itself.

The Enclave doesn't want to prove itself as the government to the people of the wasteland, nor does it need to. They saw the threat that unity posed and immediately looked to themselves.

We having one plan isn't a very good idea, is it?

So the plans were to have the Vaults open to repopulate the world if possible as a backup plan incase something wen wrong with the space ship plan (which was pretty likely).

Maybe they had the Oil Rig just in case the space ship weren't ready in time.

That does make Vaults useless besides keeping civil unrest to a minumal.

And I cannot understand this as a motivation. Who looks at total nuclear war and see's an opporutunity to do whatever... what is the Enclave's goal? I've replied to this backwards but I'll repeat what I say below again. Do the Enclave want to control the Government because they believe that they are better suited for the job or because they want to line their own pockets by getting big companies big business? What motivation does any believable character have to consider total nuclear war a good chance to take over and make the changes that they need? Why do they want to seize control? What are their political and ideological agendas? Why are they are they acheivable, say, if the Enclave got someone into the Oval Office and not if persued through proper means? Why does total nuclear war need to have occured for these people to "seize power"?

These people are giving up their entire lives, property, wealth and power for the Oil Rig; what is so damn important that they want to do that it requires them to sacrifice everything?


Which is my point. Why? Why does the Enclave, before the war, need it's own scientific personnel; it supposedly controls the company, it doesn't need to have every scientist on-board. Just the guys at the top to assign what they want their scientists to develop. On that subject what exactly does Posiedon Energy do for the Enclave? Aside from political leverage the Enclave have no use for the company itself do they? They, supposedly, want to control the U.S. Government - and therefore act within it. What could the Enclave possibly have Poseidon do that benefits them alone?

Why was the Oil Rig not given a Roman/Greek name? Because it was an Oil Platform, not a classified military-research project like all the cancelled Van Buren projects and Helois; why then was Navarro not called after the same figures? As a company you don't just name every single project/building/good after one series of things, you'd run out of names; go take a look at how ships are named for example. In the UK we have the Type 45 Destroyer where every ship is named with a name begining in the letter D, the next line of ships produced will be called a different series of names. The classical series of codenames seems to related only to classified weapons research; not the naming of an Oil Platform.


Why? Why did the guy who "designed" the Vertibird have any influence in the Enclave at all. It was a team of aeronautical engineers at what-ever military-contractor; they Enclave merely utilised those aircraft. Why Power Armour? Did the Enclave field it's own army? For what purpose? Same with energy weapons, why? Why does an engineers being told to design laser guns for the U.S. Army have to be in with the secret government? After the remains of the Government were re-established they probably brought their kit with them and maybe some armouries were raided. Unless of course the Enclave just purposesly stockpiled the weapons for their own future post-nuclear controlled U.S. Army... of course.

These conspiracies don't remain secret for long if everyone is trusted with infomation do they? Need-to-know only surely? This is where you are failing to convince me. Does this Enclave want to control the American Government to line their own pockets or steer the country in their own direction for some ideological purpose, the groups actual goal? If the former then the goal of the Enclave is probably to get what-ever corps back them into positions of power good contracts and everyone reaps the cash - typical evil lobbyist deal. If they want to control the Government because they feel themselves better qualified, but wish to act illegally for their motives or are otherwise unable to gain power through legal means, then they'll be mostly politicos with corporate fat-cats onboard to apply pressure and support candidates - maybe even keep a few people on standby for blackmail, theft and other intimidation tactics on enemies. Neither scenario however necessitates the Enclave having it's own scientific personnel nor it's own private [censored] army.

Changed their name? Eden and Richardson both refer to themselves as President of the United States, in Fallout 2 the U.S. Chemical Corps (a branch of the U.S. Army) is mentioned therefore proving that the Enclave soliders are in-fact U.S. Army Soldiers. What does Enclave mean? As I've said before maybe it's a colloquialism, a name that has gained prominance through sheer usage, derrived from the Oil Rig's codename, maybe it's the name of the Administration derrived from the Oil Rig's name; the Enclave is certainly refered to as a ubiquitus entity in Fallout 2 and 3, maybe the U.S. is a one-party system... who knows? Point is that both the Enclave and the U.S. Government are both terms used but ultimately nobody has ever claimed the title of "leader" of the Enclave.

The minute that you follow your governments orders to kill a majority of its own people you become a unconcious slug. Enclave are evil so even if they are the current government they need to be overthrown. Thats being a true American by reforming corrupt systems like our founding fathers. Thats assuming you claim the Enclave are the actual US government. Under what grounds can they claim to be the legitimate government? They weren't the previous government. The kind of just stepped in and said "We run America now". They doesnt make them the American government. That makes them a radical terrorist group that has gained a lot of power over time. America is the people. Anyone who thinks the government "is America" needs to rethink their views on real world politics. Standing up to corruption is not treason. It's patriotism at its finest. If you dont fight for reform then progress never happens.

Enclave in your post you are clearly neglecting that power, and meaning are the two biggest driving factors in the entire human race. The thrid being pleasure which is easily aquired by maintaining the first two. Power alone is enough reason for anyone to do almost anything. Well at least 99% of the soulless people who have and will have walked this earth. Greed is a small part of the thirst for power which has caused almost as much distruction on our planet as the thirst for meaning when it beomes misguided by those using its power over others in their thirst for power.

In a post apocolyptic world you are wrong about them not needing their own science team and army gain ultimate power. I'm not going to explain why because in all honesty its so apparent why those things would be necessary that not only do I think you can figure it out for yourself but I'm sure you already know without thinking and just pretended not to.

Nice post Novabythehour.

I will add this. Little is known about the pre-war government. With the fact they are split into 12? Or 13? Commonwealths, it is hard to figure out how officials were elected into Congress/Senate.

The Enclave could of had fierce opposition from representatives of some, or all, of these commonwealths. We have to assume that they did end up getting a President elected, as he fled to the rig. But this is a fact:

In the USA, the President is not all powerful. Congress is very powerful, as is the Judicial Branch. And the Enclave may not have had a majority in Congress or the Senate. Or both.

The Enclave did not create Vertibirds. They may have had a role, as I suggested, that whatever the company was that developed them may have been infiltrated or possibly under direct control of the Enclave. This is also possibly true with APA. It could have been another project the Enclave just ended up taking in the post war world. They didn't start developing APA for a long time. Maybe the reason why is because they didn't know about it until they found a pre-war facility that was researching new PA.

Btw, Navarro is located, at least the secret entrance, under a Poseidon gas station.

Also, it more than just a Oil Rig. And it was obviously designed originally to be more than just a oil rig, so, if this was just all Poseidon's doing, it would have a Greek/Roman name. I believe it does not because it was a Enclave/Poseidon project, and the Enclave had Poseidon build it how we see it in FO2, and that is why The Enclave goes there 3 months prior to the great war.

As far as motivation, I think Nova gave a solid answer.

Under the grounds of Continuity of Government. When nuclear war occured, officials of the United States fled to secure locations around the country. Under a COG plan, members of the Government who would become the "Enclave" in the post-war world took power as non-elected officials under the emergency conditions.

Similar to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCme_K6MYLY#t=1h17m02s

As the acting government, those on the Oil rig eventually became the sole members of the United States after the mainland was lost. United States sovereign territory in other words, shrank to only the area the Enclave controlled.


Who is "America" then in the post war world? The wastelanders? None of them have lived on sovereign U.S. soil for over 200 years. Thus they cannot claim U.S. citizenship. The Enclave as the United States Goverment, only controls the area of the Oil Rig in Fallout 2 and then later Navarro. The rest of the mainland was lost. Hence, new nations like the NCR have sprung up to claim the territory and the wastelanders are members of those new nations.

Also, we aren't arguing that the Enclave is the government of the wastelanders or have any sort of legal authority over them. Because they aren't the wastelanders government.


I believe the two biggest drives are survival and reproduction. Not power.

Furthermore they had more power over the United States when it wasn't blown to hell. Why they would you give up that power to live on the Oil Rig? (Assuming you believe the Enclave caused the great war.)

I don't believe the Enclave caused the Great War. They just used the chaos to complete their coup.

And uf wastelanders are not citizens, why do all the radio broadcasts and what not, and even Autumn for that matter, act like they are? That makes them even bigger liars than I think they are, so how can you trust a single thing Eden spouts as gospel, when everything else is a total lie.

Btw, all the VDs are descendants of US citizens. They are all citizens, and all subject to death. Government is not what makes the USA. It is the people, who created that government. The mainland was not lost. If anything it was abandoned and betrayed.

Ps. That video. "Legal succession set aside". It was not legal, or constitutional. So, I don't get it, are you trying to prove the Enclave is not the legal government, and they siezed power? Cuz I agree, 1000%.

You have nothing to back that up.

What Andronicus thinks is on line with Eden, they do not think Wastelanders are US citizens. Colonel Autumn however does. He feels the Wastelanders are US citizens with the right to be protected by the government. Thus, his opposition to the FEV plan.

I personally suspect that Eden, who agreed not to use the FEV, is going along with Autumn and before the LW arrives in Raven Rock he genuinely is willing to offer his helping hand to the Wastelanders. Since Autumn is a human and is in control of the Enclave's military Eden has very little say against him. When the player arrives in Raven Rock Eden returns to his genocide plan. Autumn says that Eden agreed to abandon the FEV "months ago" that is well before the main game starts.

P.S. America was never "betrayed". If someone nukes your country, you are hardly to blame.

Thats the difference between knowing what is propaganda directed to make the wastelanders complacent, and what is the actual truth.

Eden's broadcasts on Enclave radio are propaganda. The reason's for Enclave radio's existance don't make much sense anyway.

Autumn however, truly believes them to be U.S. citizens. He is not lying. He's technically incorrect, but that doesn't stop him. Nor should it.


I never understood the vault program at all or the reasons for it. As far as I'm concerned the pre-war Government/Enclave are certainly at fault for this.

Its one thing I will never justify about the Enclave.


It was never determined to be officially unconsitutional. In any case, Its simply saying that Reagan changed the definitions of succession to fit his goals. Regardless of whether or not it would have been unconstitutional, the post-war government of Reagan would have certainly been the official U.S. government for that post-war senario.

Notice how it says "the new president would prove his legitimacy by calling up a submarine from the depths of the sea." Thus proving that the individuals in Reagan's post war plan are the government, ie. the individuals actually in power of the U.S. military and thus in control of the country.

Constitutionality does not mean that a group is or isn't the United States Government. I think we've already determined that the official pre-war government was quite unconstitutional by our modern day definitions.

I am saying that the Enclave betrayed the American people. IF they were the legit government, which I do not believe they are.

If the Enclave was a pre-war shadow government like I described, OR if they were a shadow government who used the COG to sieze power, either way, they are not, and never were, the legal government. They siezed control, either way, and used the chaos of war to accomplish this.

They then abandoned the American people and 160 years later, decided to kill them.

Getting this straight here.

But at one time there members would have been members of the United States Government correct? Individual members of the Enclave would have been U.S. Government officials.

If you don't believe the Enclave is the government because it "abandoned its citizens" then what about the pre-war government?

Some of their members were in the government. Not all. Have never doubted that. The BoS are descendants of US soldiers, it doesn't make them the Army.

Either way, it is a shadow government, and a takeover. And illegal.

Note that in that video, say in Reagan days, something bad happened and this messed up conspiracy CoG plan took effect. Then, things calmed down. If the people from this illlegal plan did not step down and give the political power back to where it belonged, it would have become a coup.

So, if your CoG plan is true, the Enclave screwed over legit government, and took power. It all just a part of the coup.

I don't think it's assumed that the Enclave ever intended to leave before the nuclear war. I think the Van Buren explanation is that the Oil Rig and the Vault Experiments were all-set up to be quite long-term. The Enclave would retreat a secure location and ready themselves for the trip (quick evacuation in the face of nuclear armageddon hardly leaves you ready for long-term space travel or planetary colonization) while gathering useful information from the Vault experiments. Over the decades this plan became less appealing, probably due partly to the Vault Experiments and partly due to the world being much better off than predicted and the plan changed.

While I'm aware this isn't canon anymore the Van Buren explanation is the only one offered that explains the Enclave's pre-war motivations in screwing over so many American citizens they could've used for much more useful rebuilding efforts, their total absence from the post-war world until their sudden reappearance in Fallout 2, and how haphazard and reliant on a random chemical agent they developed more than a century after the war their plans are. I rather wished it had been introduced in some game. Instead the Vault Experiments are just there and the Enclave comes off as rather inept.

I suppose thats true, yes.

But what if it never "calmed down."? What if the United States gave into utter chaos aside from these members, their families, a handful of soldiers, and an assortment of other government officials/citizens who managed to survive in some secure location?


I agree completely. At least the Van Buren "spaceship" scenario gave it some sort of purpose.

They would still not be legal government. They would be the descendants of the people who took over for 10 seconds.

It is bound to happen in game that some other pre-war government types survived and formed a "new government". They aren't legal, either. The old govt is gone, possibly betrayed by the Enclave.