So, ironically as enclave supporter calls BoS traitors...guess what? So are Enclave.

Meh screwed that up.

10 seconds? I'd be assured that they would have been in control for more than ten seconds. If they were the ones organizing and directing any relief efforts (which there were, evidenced by the National Guard units).

I suppose that's where we differ (besides the idea of the Enclave being a pre-war organization). I believe that if these individuals took power, as what would have happened with Reagan's COG plan, they would continue to be the acting government of the United States as the rest of the country dissolved around them, making them something of a government in exile.

You don't believe they would be legal after that point. Which I suppose is a question which would be left up to our own interpretation. Its not like we can get the Supreme Court's decision on this.


I don't. I'd call them U.S. military deserters. Not traitors. They didn't actively plot against the government which would be the definition of "treason."

Although I suppose declaring yourself to be an independent nation might do that (if that is indeed what they did). Ah well, doesn't matter as far as I'm concerned.

Under the circumstances of what they saw, it was justifiable.

Mr Andronicus, by your logic, Everyone born in the former united states after the war would still recieve citzenship. Let's take a trip over to the fourteenth ammendment: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside". If the Enclave is truely the United States government, then persons born in the former united states govenrment are still under the jurisdiction of the enclave. Ergo, they are subject to the protections guarenteed by our constitution, and the corresponding ammendments. The first clause of the 14th ammendment goes on to say that: "nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws". Now then, the due process clause forms the basis of my argument, as it's incorperated the 5th ammendment across america. The enclave fails to have a constitutional govenrment, because it offers no rights to those under it's jurisdiction accused of crimes, an issue which is resolved by the majority of our bill of rights. The enclave offers no fair and speedy trial, no right against self incrimination, etc., etc. You just simply can't believe that the Enclave has any constitutional power, or right to power by some sort of "continuity of government" law, when it can't provde basic freedoms guarenteed by the constitution!

Since when is the area the wastelanders live in United States soil?

"Born or naturalized in the United States."

Its not sovereign U.S. soil anymore. Ergo they are not citizens. They also cannot claim citizenship based upon the decision of United States v. Wong Kim Ark which outlay who was born a citizen under the fourteenth amendment:

They are born U.S. citizens if and only if (this applies to babies born abroad, which is more relevant to the wastelanders):


In other words, those during the Great War would have been certainly been U.S. citizens, and their children also. However, the third generation of wastelanders would have ceased to be citizens, because their parents had not had prior residence on United States soil.


So I assume this same argument applies to the pre-war government?

Therefore the United States Government of the Fallout universe is not the United States Government by virture of being unconstitutional correct?

There is nothing that says those national guard were a part of a CoG plan. And what did they do? Absolutely nothing.

They had as much right claiming right to the government as Dave. Ie. None.

Who knows if that nat guard effort wasn't on orders from their CO, who was just acting as a officer in such a sitation should? The Enclave were only concerned about themselves.

The 10 seconds was a joke, but there is no evidence of any kind of official order or who gave it. All part of the big mystery about what happened. But in FO2 we clearly see that the Enclave do not care one bit about the people.

If they actually cared about anyone but themselves, they would have adopted a plan other than kill everyone with FEV. But, yes, we differ in opinion, but it just 2 or 3 things. Although different, there are similarities.

According to you, the Enclave is the United States goverment. If you don't believe that the Enclave is the United States govenrment I don't know why we're having this discussion. If the Enclave claims to be the United States Government, then they inherit the land and responsibilities that go along with the power. Governing is a two way street pal, If the Enclave wants the power, they have to actually govern.


Indeed it does.

A state cannot claim sovereignty over an area it does not control. It can claim de jure, but not de facto. Assuming the Enclave is the U.S. government and does not recognize that the land of the former U.S. is United States soil, than it is not so. Even if they did, it would be impossible to verify their claim but it would be up to them to decide who they wanted to naturalize. The former U.S. however, has already been carved up by new independent states who have their own citizens and their own territorial claims. Rending any claims of de jure control moot.


Great. So no one is the U.S. government in the Fallout universe then.

Just wanted to clarify that. The pre-war Government was quite unconstitutional in its actions.


To be honest evlbastrd, I really don't care if they are the government or not.

I'd be more comfortable (though not to the point of argeeing) if the shadow government theory involved a COG plan ala' Reagan. It makes more sense to me than a all-out coup in which the Enclave killed U.S. officials and what not.

If you're gonna claim to be the United States government, you usually have to be able to back that up. Obviously even you believe that the enclave is'nt fit for governing, so if they can't rule by law, nor back it up by practice what sort of absurd claim do they have?

As for your second part, i'm not even going to comment on a statement without anything to back it up.

No one else in the FO universe has come forward to say they are the government. Yet.

In 2087 there were no independent states. Also, I guess you are trying to say that as of Oct 23, 2077, the USA was no longer the USA? Even though there were US citizens surviving all over the continent? Did someone invade and take over? Why does the Enclave cease to recognize the USA again? Because...they are on a rig? Where they chose to go?

My point was not that the Enclave isn't the government by law. My point was that they don't control the territory of the former United States. The United States shrank in territory to only the areas the Enclave controlled (assuming again that they are the government).

The United States, you know, isn't inherently the area of North America.




This is what I'm saying:



With chaos and individuals looting, killing, and a general loss of organized authority? Yes. The government (whoever that was) lost control of the country. Therefore, it ceased to be U.S. soil.

If the Enclave isn't the government, then there aren't any U.S. citizens left.

I don't hate the Enclave. And I don't care if they are bad.

But I sure don't believe they are the legit government. Good or bad, if the pre-war govt was good or bad, matters nothing.

They just are not legit. They took power.

We'll just have to compromise on this then I guess. Since we aren't going anywhere simply because we don't have enough information.

Future Fallout games may provide a definite answer.

Edit: My point was more directed at the Brocian fellow. Who claimed that the pre-war Government can't be the government if they are unconstitutional. I gave him reasons why they were unconstitutional right along with the Enclave.

The whole point of my initial post was to show that the enclave had no legal authority over anyone, i don't know how you could miss that. You proved by yourself that they could not rule de jure, so i'm not quite sure where you're basing your claim still. As for the pre war government, theres honestly an insubstantial amount of canon evidence leading to them being simililar to the enclave. It's honestly like the devs themselves have not decided what the government was like.

Good talk.

Yep. No contention there if you are referring to wastelanders. The wastelanders are not U.S. citizens so the Enclave (if they are the government) has no authority over them.

The Enclave is only the government of its own citizens. Which applies whether or they they are the U.S. Government.

I apologize if I misunderstood you. It seems we are basically in agreement.

No I am not, your giving me a [censored] motivation - power for it's own sake and trying to fancy it up; if any villian actually in the game had that goal they'd be less characterised than a Bond villain. Your telling me that before "recruitment" by the Enclave - however that works - these business leaders and politicians are literally willing to give up everything for a title alone because they no that the nuclear war is coming and will destroy everything. Btw there was no pleasure in their plan, they are going to live on an Oil Rig which we see is not oppulent.


Well given that you never bothered to explain what the Enclave was - because you haven't sat down and actually invented what your own suppoesd Shadow Government does - no they still don't. What's wrong with the U.S. Army and U.S. Government personnel they so wanted power over? You were talking about having the guys who invented energy weapons having influence with them before the war, I pointed out what an insane and illogical occurance this would be so you tried to cover it with something we've never even brought up.


So why did they not try and control Congress, why didn't the super-bad guys get blackmail material, intimidations... why did they exist at all? All your doing is proving how silly your own theory is, what did the Enclave want to pass by Congress? What was there political agenda? No POWER is there agenda! This is just ridiculous. Fierce opposition to do what! Your coming out with all these things without even a starting point, what your group wants to do. What is there insidious legislation trying to do? Your right, the President isn't all powerful - I knew this, you don't seem too in your ramblings that the pre-war Enclave want power.

How in a group of power hungry people do you establish a leadership? Was there a leadership? Who gets to "evil" his way to the Oval Office, why are these people willing to forsake everything for power over a post-nuclear world, only to be satisfied by some generic position in the Senate. Your just saying things that this group did and you know that you don't know what their motivation was - just power.


Or maybe they just bought the Vertibirds from the company, or maybe they just ordered the U.S. Air Force after the war, you know, the entities they wanted to control? Maybe they developed APA on the Rig entirely .


No it's not, it was a pre-war Refinery; did you think that the broken tarmac road leading out of the place built was layed by the Enclave after the war?



What-ever, it's not how naming conventions work - end of - it's not a military weapon being researched there's no reason to follow that line of codenames. You willingly disregard facts for your stupid theory and what-ever, your welcome too it. You call us out for having "no facts" - w

Btw yes the National Guard were. The refugee camps were mobilised on the 22nd of October, what everyone would do after the war was perpared for before the war - that's why it's called a plan!

Convenient. No he did not.

Look just say, "The Enclave were a Shadow Government, they exist in bases all over the world," if that's the extent of what your willing to put into this arguement.

Agreed with this one. One of the few things in the Enclave that I consider absolutely irredeemable.

Well, you obviously need to play FO2 again. Because when you pull up to Navarro, you are at a Poseidon gas station. Unlock the door, go down, and poof. You are in Navarro.

Also, it is not my job to "make-up" the purpose of the Enclave.

All I can tell, from the games, is that the Enclave clearly want control of the USA. That is power. You act like all these pre-war powerful people should just give up because a war or something? Well, after the war, they will want to be the power. They can't stop the Chinese from launching.

As far as the Enclave trying to take control of Congress, again, while I'm sure they tried establishing as much pre-war clout as possible, we have no idea of how the pre-war govt is setup with the commonwealths. However, like any official, they are elected by the people. They can win, lose, whatever.

You act like having power, control, is no big thing, not a worthy "goal". Lol. That is one of the main reasons countries go to war. To increase their land, gain resources, and power.

You know your lore, Kudos to you, now i wish joining the enclave was possible

Look government or not i dont see a reason for saying they are better then the BoS. No matter how bad the BoS are at many times across the fallout storyline they are not worse then those mass murdering [censored]ers.

I can thanks to my mods.
I even know now why my released versions are so buggy. It's not that the mod itself is so awful it was Nexus file upload system that corrupted the files.
Now I just need to bother myself to fix it but alas procrastination wins every time.

Can you please stop being a one dimensional character... PLEASE, we get it you like the Enclave, shut up about it.

I am not talking about the Gas Station, I am talking about the huge pre-war Poseidon Oil Refinery called Navarro right behind it.


Yes it is. You've created this shadow government theory, your giving us the Enclave supposed over-arching goal, why did they want to control the pre-war United States illegally? I am asking you why they were formed, why they existed; this is your theory and it's not your job to "make-up". See bottom where I am trying to go about this in a less antagonistic method.


No, you are saying that before the war the Enclave was a shadow government that was trying to over-rule and even replace the legitimate official. You pulled the same thing with the scientists thing, this is not after the war this is before it; of course they want to control the USA after the war, they are operating (legitimacy or whatever aside) as if they were the U.S. Government. Before the war though they were supposedly a secret government that wanted power over the United States legislative, justical and other departments for a purpose that you cannot give - just a authority fetish apparently.

I am saying the opposite, that after the war the broken and pretty much defeat remnants of the U.S. Government regrouped at the Oil Rig and slowly became the Enclave see in-game - simple as that.



This is from the guy who always said that the Enclave did nothing but sit on it's ass for 164 years instead of being the Government, you know, the Government that they wanted to be.

That's because it's power with a reason, those are all reasons to have power and authority; "Power alone is enough reason for anyone to do almost anything." this is what you said was a good explaination, it's just power without cause. This shadow government either exists as an entity with a binding agenda and goal amongst it's members (this is all pre-war) that they want the United States to do or they're just greedy [censored]s who want to rake in money - personally I'd prefer the former but you aren't even hazarding to guess what this pre-war SG's end-game was, not even saying how they want power. Going to war for resources and land benefits the country, so what's the Shadow Government's personal angle? This is another reason I am finding the concept so difficult to understand without a motivation, why does the SG need to be self-serving villians?

Maybe they're the same kind of patriotic extremists from the games who pushed America in radical directions to try and make the country more powerful? Those are reasons for power because the motivation for control is understandable. Already powerful people just wanting fancy titles and unknown personal agendas whilst going about the whole affair in such a complex and silly way is not understandable; like how does such a group exist if there isn't a common goal or agenda?

Who says that they want to hold the positions themselves, maybe they're more than content to remain in the shadows using blackmail and bribery as tools over the real officials? Maybe they have radical policies that require the patience of a game of chess to slowly creep into the official legislation? Those are reasons for power, reasons that I could very well accept as character motivations; you however seem very hesitant to state what you think the pre-war Enclave's goals, modus operandi and such were - just that they wanted power. That is only half an answer, power for what end?

Just give me an answer and I'll be able to let this point slide, come on man I don't enjoy being antagonistic but I can't debate over faction when I don't know what it wants to do; when your dealing with an organisation that presumably deals with this level of mystery and secretcy being able to speculate on it's operating methods from it's goal is invaluable. If their goal was using the U.S. Government merely as a powerful resource (ala X-Files) then they might need their own scientific personnel for their self-interested research. If their goal was just to further their own version of the United States through political means then they have no need for their own scientific personnel do they? I'm trying to figure out this groups numbers, contacts and such without anything to base it on; so all I can do is thrash about trying to get a damn answer on what this group wants to do.

The existance of a quasi-government conspiracy within Fallout is perfectly plausible, do I think that the Enclave is the end-result of such a group (or at least the one your suggesting) however no. Maybe a shadow government was already in control of the United States? Ever think of that? Why is that so hard to conceive? I just think that trying to develop such a strong connection between the post-war U.S. Government and some hypothetical shadow government before the war is a step in the wrong direction.

EDIT: You say, for example, "They took power"; how? How did they take power, why was it not legitimate? Having the U.S. Secretary of State as a "member" of the Enclave group then becoming President because all those in the line of succession before him were killed is not illegitimate, it's the law.

Its the one time in fallout where the BOS is doing the right things and you call them traitors!! u dont even get what fo is about

Enclave fanatics they try to hide the truth.
BoS have done aiight by me.

I'm saying it is not my job, because I do not work for Beth, nor did I work for Black Isle. So, any theory I give on pre-war goals of the Enclave is pure speculation. There are basically no details on the pre-war government. I don't even know Congress/Senate was setup with the commonwealths. Or what, if any, Amendments to the Constitution were created, or even what that did to State government.

All of that could impact motivation. Did they want to eliminate the commonwealths, or unite them? Was there a power struggle between the commonwealths? Did they want a powerful federal government, or powerful commonwealth or states?

If there was a power struggle between the commonwealths and federal government, then that could be their pre-war agenda, but, I do not know which "side" they would be on. Were they on the side of the commonwealths or the federal government?

So, I'm not sure what you are driving at, trying to get me to commit to something that would be pure speculation? What you asking for is just a bunch of guesses, which, could all be wrong.

So, I can say there a group that angry with the power of the fed. Or a group that angry at the power of the commonwealths. Or, they were a new group upset with the power of both.

Also: Navarro is a debated thing. Was it pre-war built by Poseidon, or post war built by Enclave? On wiki for example, they speculate Navarro is relatively new. Was it? Who knows. But, also don't even know if Navarro was named by Enclave or Poseidon?