Why in the world would I want to join a bunch of traitors who stole weapons and armor from the American Army? They then use this to fight the Enclave, who are the only remaing trace of the U.S government! Why do I have to go against the country that I love? Why does it seem like Bethesda has a grudge against America? I love the Enclave, and America, and I will support no one else!!!! The Enclave IS NOT DEAD. I won't believe it.

This is propaganda...

I never thought Enclave really was America. I thought they just say that to svcka foos like that ol' dood in Megaton.

One might say that the Brotherhood should be acquitted from their desertion charges since the US army was unofficially disbanded after the War, but the Brotherhood defected a few days before the War, and thus by US military law they should be brought to court-martial by authorized personnel - that is the Enclave.

P.S. the Enclave is not dead. Elder Lyons himself says this. We don't know how many made it out of Raven Rock/AAFB, how many bases they have and what are their numbers.

uhhh, for kicks?

I think you're taking your username a bit too seriously.

Well America blew itself to ashes in a war against China so it no longer really exists in Fallout 3. The fable of a failed race, its nothing more than a fading memory, and I think that these facist enclaves and brotherhoods like it that way.

Actually, the United States stayed isolated and hoped to avoid the Resource Wars while Europeans were mauling the Arabs and China was conquering Asia.
China attacked Alaska in 2066 and thus dragged USA into the war. America annexed Canada which refused to let US troops pass through its territory (IIRC).
The US won in Alaska and landed in China, reaching the Yangtze river. Then, the war came.

President Richardson in Fallout 2 says that China launched first and I see no reason not to believe him. USA was clearly winning and Communist dictatorships tend to go ballistic when they are losing.

P.S. While I applaud you for calling the Enclave "fascist" which is quite correct, unlike "Nazi" used by most others, the Enclave is just a nickname and the organization calls and considers itself the legitimate successor government to the United States.
Their claim on the mainland does change however. In Fallout 2 they had little interest in reconquering America and instead sought to destroy most of the world's humanoids with themselves as the sole survivors to guide this planet to a new future. In Fallout 3 however Eden and Autumn both agree on restoring the pre-war government instead of founding a new one, and Eden considers the FEV only a means to a goal - not just a sadistic way to kill off a lot of people. Autumn wishes to do it more peacefully without FEV by gaining the peoples' trust by good deeds but both agree that the Enclave is the US government and its duty is to see the rebirth of the United States as it was on that fateful day October 23rd 2077.

I think the Enclave should rise up from the ashes. One that has the resolve of the current Enclave, the hopes of the NCR, the effectiveness of the Legion and the cunning of Mr. House. It's clear the Enclave in its current state will never win if it tries to commit genocide against the irradiated humans, so why not band together and create a better future? I always liked Col. Autumn because he has the right idea and I would prefer his direction to be shared among the Enclave.

Not really. Richardson openly says that "As the embodiment of the executive branch, I bear the burden of ensuring the survival and prosperity of the United States and of humanity itself. A heavy burden and yet if it means the return of the earth to our children and to their children, I bear it gladly." If anything he over plays the United States's authority, like America is pulling the whole species out of the fire this time... in-fact he even says as much "Once again, America will be the world's policeman."

Because people whom have lost everything are seldom rational, now the Enclave has lost everything to the people whom they have always hated and you expect that to bring about a good change? Isn't Shouldn't happen, I couldn't take a faction seriously who had that kind of mindset - especially when the faction in question is ruled by extremism and paranoia (now kinda justified in their eyes). It's not about winning anymore, merely survival.

First of all IMO the Enclave aren't America no matter how much eden goes on about it rebuilding it. Richardson didn't seem to give a rats ass about rebuilding. The Enclave sat on their ass for 164 years doing nothing before the Rig was destroyed.

The main theory is that the Enclave were a pre-war cabal of powerful people from the military, CEOs and other rich people as well as government that used the great war to usurp power for themselves.

The Enclave aren't the pre-war government of the United States. They only became the government after the war using the COG.

You don't want to believe the Enclave are all but dead, you should take the time to play Fallout 2 and learn for yourself. Hell Fallout 3 and New Vegas confirms that as a faction they are all but dead. They only have Outpost(s) in Chicago and that is it. They didn't have manned pre-war bases other then the Oil Rig and Navarro till after Fallout 2. Again Fallout 3 and New Vegas confirm it.

Well he did didn't he though really, kinda what the whole Project was all about. Went about it in an un-necessarily cold fashion but the survival and prosperity of what they - the United States Government - held to be the United States was pretty much their only goal.

Let's not go into the rest of your post .

Yeah I am tired of going into it as well but from what I understand of your theory the Enclave as we know it only came to be after the Great War am I right? So I would be right in saying the Enclave only became the government after the Great war. There is nothing to say they were the pre-war government and we both agree they are all but dead and shouldn't come back as a main faction.

Yeah, about right.

What I don't understand about the proposed Shadow Government from the design docs explaination is how it's supposed to make sense at all. Okay so the Enclave, according to VB, was a shadow group (given that they're abandoning the planet they're presumably not interested in actually controlling the government, I at least understand the role of big business here) that wanted to leave the planet before the nuclear war and used the Vault Experiments as data for either building a new world or building a safe environment during the long travel time right? Well how does one collect this data when your travelling away from the Earth? And when your space-ship society is unfolding at the same time as the Vaults? And didn't the then canon Tactics introduce Statis Pods? Whole thing, at least the stupid X-Files way, that the original devs were writing it really baffles me; now we have the stupid Vault Experiments left over without an explaination for why they exist at all - aside from Richardson saying that they were designed to "test" humanity (back when the Vault Experiments weren't zany fun rides but actual sociological tests).

Well your theory has it that the Enclave sort of formed after the Great War and became the Enclave we know. They are tying to survive right.

The theory I subscribe to has the Enclave gaining power and trying to survive.

But I agree we don't need to keep going on about it for the 100th time

Yeah, the official plan svcked hard either way. Fanon for the win .

Whether the Brotherhood are traitors or not, I really think it would be great if Fallout 4 writing has the Enclave as a viable moral choice.

I stand corrected. Though I find it hard to believe that America would try to stay out of a world resource war, fictional or non fictional; bit of a cop out by the writers if you ask me. As for the Enclave and Brotherhood, I suppose hard times call for hard policies.

Actually, it was not treason.

What was going on at Mariposa was immoral. Once they found out what was going on, they put a stop to it.

Also, the Enclave is not the legit government. If they were, there is no need for the name Enclave, and we wouldn't be bombarded with lie after lie.

Okay. You are a shadow group, composed of politicians, corporate big shots, rich people, etc.

You are in a dangerous time. Basically, WWIII. European countries are warring with one another, USA takes over Canada and is in war with China.

The world is potentially on the brink of nuclear war.

What do you do? Use all the power in your organization to survive, or limit yourself?

What would a person do? If say, we were headed towards nuclear war, I would make a list of things needed to survive. Make preparations. Because it is in my nature to survive.

If you did..nothing. The odds are you will not survive. If you did just one thing, I collected water! The odds are you will not survive. Do a great many things, and still, there exists the chance you will not survive.

This is why Enclave had multiple plans. It increases, but does not perfect, chance of survival.

I think that the Capital Wasteland would be a soul destroying place if you remembered what a paradise Earth used to be before the war. As two hundred years have passed in Fallout 3, nobody would remember, and so be more psychologically adept at surviving in that environment. Humans are extremely adaptable, and I think of the Fremen and the way that they have adapted to survive on a hostile desert planet in Dune with a thriving culture. I sometimes think that humanity will evolve into something similar in the future Fallout universe.

Richardson contradicts himself and greatly so. I don't see much joy in being a policeman when you and your buddies are the only humans left on the planet. With only about 20,000 government employees surviving you really can't speak of an "America" anymore.

I personally believe that the FEV plan was added later in Fallout 2's development to justify you mass murdering them and to explain why they have been holed up in the Rig for 160 years. It's not nearly as subtle as the "mutants are sterile" thing used to justify that the Master's Army had to be destroyed.

WTF was what i thought when reading this. Dude Enclave are posers man not america. America is dead in fallout get it? [censored] dead. Only thing that trully survives is Vegas in all its glory... If you didnt notice all the radiation and mutants then i would like to tell you that there is no [censored] american government only a army of mass murdering patriots with high tech [censored].

Been a while since I last came here, might as well join the discussion.

I wouldn't say that the FEV plot in FO2 was added late, but it definitely felt somewhat forced.

While Roger Masxon and his crew were definitely traitors, I don't see why that would get passed down to their children. While the Enclave has very good reasons for wanting the BoS dead, I don't think they really care about the fact that their predisixrs left the army right before the War happened.

America is not dead. Even if the Enclave is not the true government, they are the only ones who give a crap about America.

What you are suggesting is that the Enclave was a large influencial survival group. What purposes does a "corporate bigshot" have in an organisation which is planning for an event which would render him useless as an asset? What you're suggesting is that the Enclave was a cabal of high-ranking people whom built fancy long-term survival shelters, why not just have Vault-Tec build a private vault? You believed that the same people controlled Vault-Tec and built the experiments but if immediate survival is the only goal why go in for all the shadowy [censored] at all? What is the point? If you're going to say something along the lines of conquering the United States then how does that work? Why are the remains of the DoD, Congress and such all in their own centralised networks and locations and then there's a motely group of different professions on an Oil Rig in the ocean calling the shots? Again, what purpose in this senario do corporate executives and just "rich-people" have - having neither any authority, money or assets anymore? Why is it easier this way than having the people in this "group" just have a 100% fool-proof way of being the proper governmental bunkers, those are pretty spread out after-all.

Of course all of this is equally as plausible as the remnants of the government simply regrouping after the war (an event which actually happened)and becaming the Enclave from that point on? No lingering questions, no [censored] motives, no insanity, just a reasonal explaination; the Fallout U.S. Government were always amoral [censored]s anyway so why Vault-Experiment? Why Mariposa, why Big MT, there's a good explaination for the Vault Experiments - something in the U.S. Government thought that there was probably some valuable research to be gained here so just set the thing in motion, it has a precident and motivation. Hell in Vault 21 it says that it was no secret that the Vault had ulterior purposes in testing societal concepts, a perfect cover operation. But no the Shadow Goup did all this because they had their own private project that required such research... somewhere... in a future game maybe..

Maybe the Enclave was actually a bunch of right-wing pro-American extremists, maybe they were a cabal of corporate and legal big-wigs, maybe they were a secret society like the Masons or a purely American Bilderberg Group; there is no evidence of one over the other and you could probably argue whatever you like because there's nothing to say what's right or what's wrong with your theory.

EDIT: Again what's the most likely source of the Enclave's name? That it was the official name of the Oil Rig (again, sourced) that they were based on and they adopted it or it was the shadow government signing it's work in the official records of the damn Depertment of Defence. Doesn't that suggest that the Oil RIg is the main Enclave base then, being named after it? So who opts to stay in another location when the leaders of the Shadow Government have gone as far as to brand this base with their own name?

EDIT2: I don't defend this viewpoint because it lends creedence to any more of my musing on the Enclave, the supposed origins of the group really have no bearing on whether the group is a continuation (unless of course the Shadow Government had the power to have the Constitution legally amended by Congress to suit their eventually take-over and have self-preferencial emergency laws passed to give themselves power - yet they still want more power!). It simply makes more sense as a backed-up theory. This is, if you will, a societal study of my own to determine why people but into such a convelueded theory - I have my suspicions anyway.