well for me

all of the above. Each faction has its merits. Only problem is they all are fanatic about their beliefs. which is a problem. get passed that and the world be be set.

Just imagine other parts of the world,. this is just the US. I could only imagine what it's like in other areas.

edit to add: enclave and Bos are a bad choice alone. If they joined forces they would create a force to be reckoned with, but that would never happen. Sad truth is neither faction would be good for the people of the wasteland. I think allot people want to be protected, but don't want someone looking over their shoulders or reaching in their pockets every day.

Personally I would rather create a new faction that more powerfully then either faction.

This faction is called The Couriers

It has never been said in the games that the whole goverment was part of the Enclave. The Enclave are the descendants of a part of the goverment what retreated to the Oilrig.

But, like in my previous posts. My arguement was that, while they may not have been "government the people voted in" they were still the people in power. Thus they were the government. I have not yet seen evidence to the contrary that anyone besides the Enclave had any real power and were little more than puppets.

Actually, that is racist. Race does not limited to human and human only. We are in fact the "human race"; Monkeys are "Monkey race" in a board sense. Essentially, any kind of discrimination against Xenos is being "racist".

And no, mutant with little difference are still a human "sub-race"; a wasteland Caucasian is just "radiated Caucasian", as oppose to "pure Caucasian". Super Mutants are just "Meta spines" and Ghouls are "Necro spines" as oppose to "homo spines".

Well I wasn't arguing about that, this is the post I was replying to:

So by that logic. I am a racist because I hunt deer correct? After all I am killing members of the "deer race". There is a clear difference between race and species, they are not one in the same.



A mutant is as much a "sub-race" as a monkey is a sub-race to humans (ie. they aren't). Ghouls are not humans, so therefore they can not be a "race" of humanity, same with supermutants. "radiated Caucasion" is not a race, i don't see how i could be. My point here is that the term "racist" is thrown around way to much and connects the Enclave with groups such as the KKK. Use the term "elitists" to describe them and we can be done with this debate.



Fair enough :foodndrink:

No the enclave are decendents of the pre war goverment

which makes them the government how exactly? Government posts don't exactly get passed down from one generation to the next.

Only the people who went to the Oilrig (i.e the pre-war Enclave), but there were goverment officials who weren't part of it and they are the ones mentioned in your quote. (along with the Oilrig people)

Well, yes and no. If you consider race in a board sense, instead of "civilized"(although can be as low as stone age) life forms.And do you hunt deer for food or sports? if the former then it is no.

"Race" is not quite species as some difference in race may not be different enough to consider different "species", or vice verser.

Errr...no, because human is a sub-race of monkeys, not the other way around. "Radiated Caucasian" is race because it have the tiny little DNA difference that Enclave consider them not "pure/standard homo spines".

Elitism have some similarity to Racism, however they can contradict each other depend on how the "Elites" are formed. Caesars Legion for example is Elitist, but they are not racist (well, don't really know how they tread Ghoul or Super Mutants, but they are pretty fair towards different tribes and all kind of people.)

I would hazard a guess that Ghouls and Super Mutants and Nightkin can't breed and are therefore NOT a race; but mutants, or best case: a Subspecies.

That said, however; I think you can replace "racist" with "prejudiced" and still be on target.

Well, since Ghouls and Super Mutants developed some unique culture, and can artificiality reproduce, I think Sub-race would do.

And "Prejudiced" doesn't quite describe how they don't consider radiated human "people".

Key word being "artificially". It's not like they are Mules that could possibly be bred "by accident". Creating Super Mutants was an intentional effort that would not occur spontaneously in nature like the birth of a Mule theoretically could. Super Mutants are, at best, a subspecies.

I hunt deer for sports so I suppose I am racist. :facepalm:

The term "racist" in the context of our modern understanding means that we look at people of the same species who are visually different as either "superior" or "inferior". In all actuality though the term "race" has no meaning whatsoever. People in England are more different amongst each other than a African is from an Englishman (ie. an African from somalia could be more similar to a guy from london than a guy from london is from his friend from liverpool, gentically anyway). A mutant is not a "race" because it is a totally different species. Prehaps "irradiated peoples" are not completely non-human (everyday wastelander) but they are not "human" by the Enclave's defintion. A race is not made by just irradiating them and saying "ho ho new RACE". In the SCIENCE! based logic of the fallout universe. Irradiation turns people into ghouls and changes their DNA so that they are not quite "human" anymore (extra toe or something).

What you are aruging is frankly....kinda silly. You are saying that your definition of "racist" includes anyone who kills something of another "species" because that species is its own "race". The term "human race" is a misnomer. Humanity is a species. Not a race. If your defintion of a "racist" includes hunters and people who kill animals who are not "human" (ie. a human who kills a monkey is a racist) then yes under that very flawed definition the Enclave would be "racists" and so would I. :rolleyes: It seems people are so quick to say the "Enclave" are racist because they want to say how bad the Enclave is and then they don't even really understand the term....

In summary. The term "race" has actually no real meaning. It was invented to highlight differences between different groups (which I have already explained has no scientific backing).



exactly.

Your saying irradiated humans are a whole different species? A simple definition of species: any group of organisms capable of reproduction, producing fertile offspring. Wasters and Vault Dwellers and 'Clave Citizens are all the same species, Enclave is racist.
Yes, Ghouls are infertile, or sterile, but are no less human than a castrated man or a woman with ovarian cancer.

not there not they want to kill everything MUTATED to retern america back the way it was and last time i checked wanting to kill mutated things is not recist

.....even if thats true....how are they racist? As I have already explained, the term "race" means squat. What you guys are arguing is that in the game-universe the term "racist" has expanded to include people who dislike ghouls, mutants and the like. I say thats incorrect. We are arguing over a definition of a word.

The simple reason I don't like when people call the Enclave racist is because it suggests they go around wearing white sheets and burning crosses. It connects them to a real-life problem in our society and a bunch of hated groups. I just don't want them to be associated with a real-life issue.

Besides by your definition.....

"Talon Company kills and fights mutants and wastelanders who are all the same species. Talon Company in racist"



So my aunt who had ovarian cancer is a ghoul? So your saying she'll live to be 200+ years?

Ghouls aren't human in more ways than just being infertile......

Women that can't have children due to cancer can't live 200 plus years. They arn't dead looking and rotting either.

Enclave see anyone that has changed even a little do to radiation or FEV as Mutated. Its an extreme view yes. If we see them again lead by Augustus autumn that view most likely will change cause come on how many times do we need to kill the same people with same motive?

Edit: Ninja'd by Lt. Andronicus about the ghoul thing.

:ninja:

Not quite, Im glad to have some backup in regards to this.

Talon Company kills who they are hired to kill, nothing else.

So your saying your aunt isnt a human? I told you the biological definition of species, and here is my point: A Ghoul is a sick human, but is still human.

I to have an aunt who had ovarian cancer but I am not mad at Mako Vlazkov.

Just a human women with cancer is totaly different then a ghoul women other then they can't have kids.

double post sorry.

they are humans who where exposed to radiation for a period of time and transformed into a mutant

If we are just going by the ability to reproduce then Super Mutants are nothing more then Sick Humans.

Hmmm I don't know about that....seems that they were fighting alot of mutants near the capitol....



Thats not what I said. That is basically what you said though. You said that a ghoul is no different than a person with ovarian cancer. My aunt will not live to be 200+ years. When something does that (ie. lives WAY past the normal lifespan of a "normal" in the species) it seems clear to me that it is no longer a part of the original species. A ghoul is not a "race" I don't see how it can be. The problem here is that most likely, a totally new definition would have to be made to categorize what a "ghoul is" prehaps "new species" doesn't cut it, but neither does "race" (and racism). We have nothing to compare it to in our lives today and never will. This debate is basically foolish...