*buzzer sound* :spotted owl:

wrong. They are not just a bunch of hooligans who came together and said "hey guyz lets make a goverment and pretend we're the United States". Most of Congress and indeed the President of the United States (presumably most of his cabinet as well) went to the Oil Rig before the bombs fell and became "the Enclave". They are not a seperate organization from the old in-game U.S. government, even if the people didn't know that there was such a thing as "the Enclave" before the war. I find it quite silly that people find it so hard to believe that the Enclave are the United States. They are. Period. Even if the Enclave does not much resemble the current U.S. However if we were to experience a global nuclear disaster then we would undoubtably see something closely resembling them in terms of being hidden and fortifed in bunkers. Its called COG (Continuity of Government) and is a plan enacted if such a catastrophe would take place.



1. The Enclave can probably explain this better than I can (as in the forum member) but, mutations are indeed more harmful than being pure. It causes problems and complications to individuals and their offspring as well. Mutants are a threat to humanity (ie. the Master and DC mutants) and the Enclave sees what they are doing as justified.

But that is indeed one of their more radical qualities.

2. What? Is that a bad thing?

3. Yeaaah no. They were safe on the oil rig and have not mutated at all. They are still pure-strain humanity.

(side note: lets not bring political commentary or discussion into this debate, no "ENCLAVE ARE NAZIS" talk.)

Neither. Both sides are too consumed by technolust. I'm just waiting for them to drop all pretense and start a war over who gets to "play" with Fisto first.

The Enclave are not consumed by "technolust". They view technology as important but they don't worship a damn laser rifle. They develop and create technology only to better themselves and their goals. The Brotherhood sit in their bunkers and collect dust like old couches and sit with a laser pistol in front of them and say "oooooo preeeetty....". That is "technolust".

The Fiends.

That is circumstantial evidence. For all we know the Enclave liked the President at the time. Or he and is cabinet were the nothing but manchurian candidates. The Enclave could have just kidnapped them or need them to give their rule some legitimacy. Enclave usurped power from the government and use the great war to finally take over and exicute their plans.

Enclave were a shadow group made up of Military, Government and private business leaders. Working in the shadow pulling the strings. Who knows maybe they started the great war.

This is straight from the vault(fallout wiki)

Come 2077, with total nuclear war rapidly arriving at America's doorstep, the President of the United States and a number of other United States government officials left their posts to take refuge in a number of secret locations around the world. Among them was the Poseidon oil rig. Here, the President himself set up a secret base from which the USA could continue to exist and wage war on China, with the eventual goal of retaking the continental United States.
The oil rig was there hq

Alright, so if what your saying is true and a "seperate organization" called "the Enclave" was behind in the shadows and pulling the strings. Then the question must be asked "who was running the government?" or better yet "who WAS the U.S. government? The people in power that is."

The answer then would be, "The Enclave".

Prehaps the entity or codeword known as "The Enclave" was not the public face of the government, but it/they were the U.S. government de facto.

The answer would be the Government was running the Government. Enclave members were just in key locations. Enclave could have been around for decades. Truehitman2010 made it easy.




Enclave members went to the Rig. Others went to secret bases to carry out the War. Vault Zero :hubbahubba:

Edit: Wording would say president did go to the Rig but most of the Government? No.

And that Government would be.......The Enclave. (if what you are saying about a seperate organization is true) The Enclave, in whatever form, are the U.S. government.

If, in the senario that you put forth, the Enclave were the ones "pulling the strings" then the people whos strings were being pulled were not the government. They had no real authority. They were puppets and "the Enclave" would have been the real ones in power. Therefore they are the government. There is really no way to get around this. Shadow governments are still, governments.

You are technically correct the best kind of correct. Enclave in Key spots were "the government" but not the legitimate government . They usurped power by pulling strings. The Enclave are fallouts twisted version of the Illuminati. People Voted for their puppets and not them. They are a very radical group that wormed their way into the American Government, Military and powerful private business.

Just so you know this is not my view of the Enclave but meh, I'll take what I can get. :shrug:

Whatever people choose to believe about the Enclave, what they do, and how bad or good they are. One fact is indisputable, in whatever form, in whatever way, they are the U.S. Government in the Fallout universe. Even if they were a type of "illumanti conspiracy". People seem to have this notion that the U.S. is infallible and therefore (because they think they Enclave is "bad") they refuse to associate one with the other. But that is not the case and is an unreasonable arguement (ie. that because the Enclave is "bad" they "can't be America"). The Enclave were and are the United States of America.

nvm

Well, let's look at the current situation:

Enclave: West Coast went Boom real well, and the Remnants are rotting in prison, blended into NCR or civilian life well, or are playing Grumpy Old Men in the Mojave and hitting the Hoover Dam for the Courier( on a personal note, except for the NCR hater for being a tight wad, i like them all in F:NV.) The East coast Enclave was and IMHO deserved every blast, shot, and dismemberment they got for Eden and Autumn's Terror campaign throughout the Capital Wasteland. They deserved destruction at Raven Rock, the Purifier, and at Adams Air Force Base. As for the Enclave at Chicago, we will see, but i agree there has to be more than just the Enclave in Chicago.

Brotherhood of Steel: Now I will admit i love the Brotherhood( hence my name) but the brotherhood needs to change, or it is going to go the way of the Enclave. The NCR is Kicking the Brotherhood's ass in the west, and depending on the Courier's actions, the Mojave Chapter might prosper or fail( i try to help them prosper unless i am playing House or Legion, even then i wait for the last moment to blow them up) In the East, Lyon's Brotherhood of Steel has the right idea, and I think their idea should be spread to the rest of the chapters out west, or else they will die out for being so old fashion with their ideals, Hell, the last Maxson agrees with Lyon's ideas, and he is a kid! Casdin and his Outcasts need to quit crying over spilt plasma and just get over it, Lyons got the better tech and equipment, and got the location of the Super Mutants to stop them, so rejoin Lyon's Brotherhood and stop whining that your not on your original mission. As for the other Chapters in the United States, we will have to see, or wait to see if they will be confirmed as Canon.

In closing, There are Villians and Heroes on both sides of the debate, but overall, i would still support the Brotherhood over the Enclave anyday of the week.

Going waayyy off topic.

The pixies Enclave are no more the U.S goverment, than the elves Brotherhood are the U.S army ( back on topic here / more or less. )

Maybe once apon a magical time, they both were those or at least a portion of the whole.
Now they're just factions fighting to stay alive and achieve dominance over certain aspects of post apocalyptia.
Neither are doing well or achieving those original aims at all, and neither could wipe each other out without MAD happening.

If no one Voted for them then they are not the legitimate government. They are not carrying out the will of the pre-war American People. I am sure many would not want to have been killed in a Nuclear armageddon or vote for a man that wants to have billion dollar experiments (Vaults). They are the only people that remember America as it was (as they saw it). They were Radical dangerous shadow people. I am not saying they are Evil. I am just debating that they were not the Legitimate pre-war government and they just call themselves the American Government now. Does not make it so.

As pointed out before most of the government did not go to the Rig but other secret bunkers.I like to think was Vault Zero and the Enclave designed it to fail, killing the Ligitimate Government.

And this is the debate I will make for that claim (this is in the interest of friendly debate, I enjoy this kind of talk)

First off. I am an American and I do believe in the constitution and the ideas of democracy and liberty.

But now on to your subject about where a government derives its legitimacy from. As an American, I know that we have the idea that a "governments power and legitimacy is rooted in the consent of the people." (Social Contract Theory, John Locke) The problem with that idea is that it is a "relatively" (and I stress relatively) new concept (yes a form of this was used by the Greeks and Romans but they both soon fell into monarchies anyway so...). For most of history, governments did not need the "consent of the people" they only needed the power and authority to enforce their will. What you defined is the "American/British" definition of the word "government" (British/American when it was first developed anyway), but in reality, no matter what definition you go off of, the people in power are "the government" de facto. Dictators do not need the consent of people voting but they are "the governent".

Even if the officials in "the Enclave" were not voted in. They are still the government, because in reality, governments do not need the consent of the people, there isn't some "outside" power that says "HEY! YOU NOT LETTING PEOPLE VOTE, YOU NOT GOVERNMENT!" If an organization takes power and holds the real authority and makes the decisions in the country, it is the government. Period, no matter what anyone says.

If America were to descend into a monachy today, would the King of America be our government and head of the country? Yep. Even if he didn't let us vote? Most certainly. All hail his majesty.

Anyway this is starting to sound like my university work and suddenly its less fun....

Like The Enclave said, Mutants are everyone who wasn't isolated. This means that everyone person on the world would have to die and a select few start again.


They preach purity of genetics, but small mutations enter each subsequent generation of humans. Their genetic make up is slightly different from their pre-war forefathers.
Main land humans experienced a few more, but in general are still quite similar to pre-war humans in how they work. Since the population expands one cannot claim it has a terrible effect on birthrates.
In the end the mutations between many main land humans and Enclave are small to say the least.

But the differences are still present, once the Enclave's genetic purity has been comprimised it can never be contained. I was thinking more along the lines of birth defects which I really don't want to think about, maybe with Fallout being an interactive medium such detail cannot really be implimented, in a novel or such maybe, but that's a whole 'nother topic.

As for Styles and Andronicus's excellent discussion, as much as I would like to respond I don't really know that much about you're government Andronicus and, even Canadian, I'm sure Styles knows more than I, in reality of course. It's 00:30 here and in 5 hours I need to be up to do some work I didn't because I was trying to justify the mass genocide, again. Might review and post something tomorrow.

@Paladin John, I hope the screams of all the burning children from Raven Rock haunt you forever. They're only Enclave scum right? That have no choice about anything, being brought up by a dictatorial, unconstitutional machine, who cares?

I do enjoy the debate but this is not the topic for it. I will finish with this last bit. If the president of the United States today or in Fallout said "screw you svckers I am King now." The people would not bend over and take it. Unoffical fourth branch of the American government is "The People." Right to right to bear arms is not something just to keep the King of England out of your face. Its to stop someone from saying "I am king now." Its there so if someone does not want to step down. The people will have the means to remove them.

Anyways way off topic.

Yes this is a bit off topic and we should probably end it so I will respond to your post and be done.

You're absolutely right. If the President were to say. "I am the King". He wouldn't last long, he would need the backing of the military but unless our country is completely out of wack, the United States military would say "uhhh screw you, next President please!" My point though is not that people can't revolt and rebel and force someone out of power. If they would, then whatever they did and whoever became in charge would be "the government". My point is that "whoever is in charge, is the government". Even if the people don't like it. Whether they choose to do something about it is their perogative and then the person who was in charge, wouldn't be.

Now think on this. If the President did declare our current republic void and himself ruler, and beat down any opposition (with a hypothetical backing of the military for instance). Then would the "Kingdom of the United States of America" be the true government, with the power? Yes, and unless people did something to topple that government, or declared a new country. The United States government, would be in the hands of a king.

Something similar happened with the Enclave, even if they are not what people voted in. They seized power and therefore are the government.

Anyway this discussion went really deep and its roots were what started the American Revolution in the first place.....so what were we talking about?

You do speak some logic there but, till another time :foodndrink:

The Enclave, and I'll simplify it for you. The Brotherhood of Steel have no motivation, while the Enclave will do what is necessary to restore a Pre-War America Wasteland. The Enclave are superior in almost every aspect, and let's not forget they have kick ass Power Armor

You have got to be kidding me.. seriously guys. The enclave ARE DEAD AND GONE. At least on the west coast and most of the east coast they are, seriously, like I mean G.O.N.E gone! Maybe in chicago, and who knows how many more enclave mobile bases are out there, but still, for all intents and purposes they are dead. Think of it this way,[spoiler[ ED-E was being sent to Navaro, right? that means that they are so out of touch with other branches, that they didn't even know Navarro had been destroyed![/spoiler] With that, it also means that in whatever small numbers they do exist, they arn't even in any sort of condition to fight.

Just cause he sent Ed-e to navaro dosent mean they don't know considering there losses they didn't tell them since morale was probly low

How can you say the Enclave are dead? Seriously, when the Oil Rig was destroyed at Navarro that didn't necessarily mean the Enclave were destroyed. Sure they lost a lot of troops, but they could easily rebuild. Just because the Mobile Base Crawler was destroyed doesn't mean they're all gone. If anything from past Fallout games has thought us, it's that the Enclave always rebuild no matter what.