Brotherhood vs Enclave : Fallout: New Vegas

» Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:02 pm

let's not forget they have kick ass Power Armor

lies!! They have kick ass power armour MK2 to

» Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:27 am

lies!! They have kick ass power armour MK2 to

That was what I was referring to

» Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:47 am

You have got to be kidding me.. seriously guys. The enclave ARE DEAD AND GONE.

That holds no relevance to the discussion. Whatever the status of the Enclave is, the debate is over whether people prefer them to the brotherhood or not and which faction is "superior".

In my view, the Enclave is not dead. Prove me wrong. There is nothing that says "the Enclave are officially no more and no longer exist anywhere". I believe that somewhere, be it in the Chicago outposts or in Florida or Mount Weather or wherever. The Enclave still exists in some form. Even if that form has been severely weakend. Until Bethesda comes out with an offical statement about the subject or it is offically dealt with in a game. Saying "the Enclave is dead.....seriously guys...im super cereal.." is nothing more than speculation really and has no more weight than saying "the Enclave still is out there somewhere."

lies!! They have kick ass power armour MK2 to

Hellfire armor beats all. :flamethrower:

» Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:45 am

We've got a tank, just gonna squeeze this in real quick.

» Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:47 pm

I just wouldn't believe the "pre-war shadow government" can be destroy that easily. In a sense, I think there would be more Enclave "Cells" than there is BoS "chapters".

The FO2 event may destroy Enclave "Cell"s on the 2 commonwealth on West Coast, FO 3 would have wipe out DC "Cell" and some of the Remnant from west coast.

» Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:15 am

The DC BOS is essentially the only chapter that cares for the surrounding populations. The rest are more extreme than the enclave, but they get buy with scrapped tech. Like other posters have said, enclave continues to make tech, and without an 18 year old kid the BOS would have nothing, they're never prepared.

» Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:33 pm

Stop saying the enclave are dead there is so many areas that we haven't seen Texas Florida Alaska most of states haven't been seen

Off topic: I can see enclave haveing a base in the statue of liberty a nuke oroof bunker in a mountin(mount hellis or something(it's also real))

» Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:26 am

The ncr rely on pre war riot armour vangraffs don't make them

You are 'kind of' right on one point. Turns out the NCR's power armor is salvaged from BoS power armor (but this does not take away from the fact that the NCR has a good amount of that power armor for their use). Also, the Van Graffs either make energy weapons or do a damn fine job at repairing energy weapons (in either case, my point remains valid that the BoS does not have an edge over the citizens of the wasteland. Even Veronica admits this.) How the hell do you think they keep their customers supplied? You think Pre War energy weapons come from a magic box of infinity?

» Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:36 pm

You think Pre War energy weapons come from a magic box of infinity?

yea it's called a garden of Eden creation kit OR G.E.C.K*flashes a few times*

» Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:07 pm

Also, the Van Graffs either make energy weapons or do a damn fine job at repairing energy weapons (in either case, my point remains valid that the BoS does not have an edge over the citizens of the wasteland. Even Veronica admits this.) How the hell do you think they keep their customers supplied? You think Pre War energy weapons come from a magic box of infinity?

They are either making them, or they are sitting on a giant pile of pre-war weapons. Come to think of it.....what ever happened to the stockpiles in Navarro? Maybe the NCR is using the Van Graffs to get Enclave weapons tech into the hands of the people so they can help make life miserable for the BoS.

» Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:24 pm

Stop saying the enclave are dead there is so many areas that we haven't seen Texas Florida Alaska most of states haven't been seen

The whole "Enclave is dead" point isn't a question of whether or not there are any bases out there. It's a question of who's leading them. Between the destruction of the oil rig and Raven Rock, the Enclave no longer have any form of centralized leadership, leaving each base or cell or whatever to fend for themselves. The brotherhood can continue to pursue their goals, while the Enclave no longer has the coordination to do so. The Enclave is decreasing in power while other factions, such as the NCR, are becoming more and more powerful.

» Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:30 am

For those who said Enclave aint racist, they are. The wastelander have proven that they can live off with slight tight of Radiation; and instead of trying to reverse the generic damage done by radiation, the Enclave plan to kill off all human that isn't "pure", namely have slight difference in DNA, which is by all means racist.

» Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:08 am

Id have to go with the enclave yeah theyre sorta like nazis trying to purge the wasteland of "inferior beings" but their mission is to restore america the BoS want independancy but they arent open to change they want to stick with there older tech thats why some broke off and joined the outcasts so in short at least the enclave dont have issues with insabordination

» Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:44 am

This is straight from the vault(fallout wiki)

Come 2077, with total nuclear war rapidly arriving at America's doorstep, the President of the United States and a number of other United States government officials left their posts to take refuge in a number of secret locations around the world. Among them was the Poseidon oil rig. Here, the President himself set up a secret base from which the USA could continue to exist and wage war on China, with the eventual goal of retaking the continental United States.
The oil rig was there hq

The goverment and The Enclave are two different things.

Brotherhood of Steel: Now I will admit i love the Brotherhood( hence my name) but the brotherhood needs to change, or it is going to go the way of the Enclave. The NCR is Kicking the Brotherhood's ass in the west, and depending on the Courier's actions, the Mojave Chapter might prosper or fail( i try to help them prosper unless i am playing House or Legion, even then i wait for the last moment to blow them up) In the East, Lyon's Brotherhood of Steel has the right idea, and I think their idea should be spread to the rest of the chapters out west, or else they will die out for being so old fashion with their ideals, Hell, the last Maxson agrees with Lyon's ideas, and he is a kid! Casdin and his Outcasts need to quit crying over spilt plasma and just get over it, Lyons got the better tech and equipment, and got the location of the Super Mutants to stop them, so rejoin Lyon's Brotherhood and stop whining that your not on your original mission. As for the other Chapters in the United States, we will have to see, or wait to see if they will be confirmed as Canon.

There are already other people out there helping people, like the Followers of the Apocalypse (and the NCR to some extent), but The Brotherhood has a Codex to follow. If you don't like it, you are free to leave.

It's like asking the Red Cross to join the fighting in Afganistan, really.

» Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:19 am

EDIT. Bugger

» Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:38 pm

They are either making them, or they are sitting on a giant pile of pre-war weapons. Come to think of it.....what ever happened to the stockpiles in Navarro? Maybe the NCR is using the Van Graffs to get Enclave weapons tech into the hands of the people so they can help make life miserable for the BoS.

Navarro fell to NCR so if they captured it then the weapons would fall to the army or Enclave destroyed anything of value before the fall.

Chances are Van Graffs are making the energy weapons. I base this on the Gun Runners. They used to make Energy Weapons along with normal weapons from pre-war blue prints. Due to attacks on their energy weapons caravans they stopped making them. If the Gun Runners can do it. I don't see why the Van Graffs can't.

Its also possible that since Van Graffs come from New Reno they got their weapons/blue prints from Sierra Army Depot.

» Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:25 pm

For those who said Enclave aint racist, they are.

The Enclave aren't racist. I've had this discussion before. A mutant is not a "race" of humanity because mutants are no longer human. Elitists prehaps, racists no. If ghouls are a race (which they're not) then the DC Brotherhood would be racists as well since they shoot ghouls on sight (see ghoul guard of underworld).

The goverment and The Enclave are two different things.

No they're not and see posts above and on the pages before this to see reasons why. (debate between me and Styles)

The whole "Enclave is dead" point isn't a question of whether or not there are any bases out there. It's a question of who's leading them. Between the destruction of the oil rig and Raven Rock, the Enclave no longer have any form of centralized leadership, leaving each base or cell or whatever to fend for themselves.

That is possible but given their advanced technology and mobility I would assume that the "cells" have been able to maintain some contact with each other. Then their is also the "Enclave High Command" which was mentioned in Broken Steel and could still exist. The Enclave was designed to deal with government collapses such as this. My guess is that someone, somewhere, has taken command of the Enclave forces. Prehaps a new President who has taken command following COG protocols.

» Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:23 am

i like the enclave's principle, but their method is in the extremes, if that's what it takes for the to dominate their purposes then they can have my 2 cents.

» Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:36 pm

Also, the Van Graffs either make energy weapons or do a damn fine job at repairing energy weapons

They dont make them or repair them, the stole them from Gun Runner caravans, and they are in very bad shape, at that.

Chances are Van Graffs are making the energy weapons. I base this on the Gun Runners. They used to make Energy Weapons along with normal weapons from pre-war blue prints. Due to attacks on their energy weapons caravans they stopped making them. If the Gun Runners can do it. I don't see why the Van Graffs can't.

You were so close, the Gun Runners can make guns because they have the support and resources of the NCR and the NCR Army. Van Graffs are more likely to be shot to death by the NCR Army.

» Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:09 pm

You were so close, the Gun Runners can make guns because they have the support and resources of the NCR and the NCR Army. Van Graffs are more likely to be shot to death by the NCR Army.

Van Graffs also have the support of the NCR. Van Graffs have operations back West in NCR just like the Crimson Caravan and Gun Runners

Spoiler

The Van Graffs make a deal to sell weapons to NCR.

Gun Runners were also around before NCR ever gained power.

» Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:44 am

Van Graffs also have the support of the NCR. Van Graffs have operations back West in NCR just like the Crimson Caravan and Gun Runners

Spoiler

The Van Graffs make a deal to sell weapons to NCR.

Gun Runners were also around before NCR ever gained power.

The Gun Runners call themselve an "unofficial branch of the NCR" and supply the NCR with their weapons. The Van Graffs even admit that they are blood enemies with the NCR.

» Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:26 pm

The Gun Runners call themselve an "unofficial branch of the NCR" and supply the NCR with their weapons. The Van Graffs even admit that they are blood enemies with the NCR.

Complete the quest "Birds of a Feather", the Van Graffs can no longer match the NCR and whilst they are enemies they have been known to broker temporary weapon deals to reach a sort of cease-fire for a time.

» Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:59 pm

Complete the quest "Birds of a Feather", the Van Graffs can no longer match the NCR and whilst they are enemies they have been known to broker temporary weapon deals to reach a sort of cease-fire for a time.

Yes, but that was not my point, there is substantial evidence that the Van Graffs are the ones who attacked the Gun Runner EW caravans, and the poor condition of these weapons only shows that they have very little ability to repair them, let alone manufacture them.

» Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:25 am

The Gun Runners call themselve an "unofficial branch of the NCR" and supply the NCR with their weapons. The Van Graffs even admit that they are blood enemies with the NCR.

Gun Runners were around in FO1. NCR was just shady sand. Gun Runners used to make Energy weapons then. NCR at some point takes control of LA and Gun Runners saw NCR as a Cash Cow.

Van Graffs have a beef with NCR but NCR is not going around fighting them. I say this because there is a quest were you can prove

Spoiler

both the Van Graffs and Crimson Caravan have been attacking caravans like Cassidy's and when you give this info to NCR leadership they say they will do something about it. Mostly expose both as unfair business. To pass laws to stop that or something.

they don't say "Nows are change to destroy the Van Graffs."

I am guessing the Van Graffs beef if they don't like NCR's laws or the devalued currency.

» Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:48 am

Yes, but that was not my point, there is substantial evidence that the Van Graffs are the ones who attacked the Gun Runner EW caravans, and the poor condition of these weapons only shows that they have very little ability to repair them, let alone manufacture them.

The Van Graffs openly admit that the Gun Runners are their oppenents and that they... I can't remember the wording but it is something intentionally, on Gloria's part, saying that they do attack Gun Runner caravans.

Energy Weapons are complex things, who really knows what how hard they are to repair and manufacture, the Gun Runners manufacture guns because they melt down scrap metal and pressuambly get wood from somewhere, EW's require a lot of complex parts like those delicate glass tubes at the end of Urban Plasma Rifles for example.